Author Topic: Atheism and the USA, followup (Read 10507 times)

Booz · « **Reply #510 on:** May 29, 2006, 01:07:42 PM »

Please enjoy your faith, you have that right.

Just don't accuse me of faith if I just don't believe any of that?

lukster · « **Reply #511 on:** May 29, 2006, 01:11:13 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Booz
and you won't accuse me of faith if I just don't believe any of that?

If you are aware of your existence and that of what you can observe yet believe that it was not created by an intelligent being then no, you are exercising faith.

This has gone in many circles, to paraphrase someone earlier in this thread, lack of belief in God is not the same thing as belief that there is no God. This may seem like a word play but it isn't.

Chairboy · « **Reply #512 on:** May 29, 2006, 01:19:21 PM »

Lukster: I appreciate the strengths of your convictions, but I think they may be misplaced when it comes to finding a faith-hole to put me into.

My lack of faith should not be seen as an attack on you or yours.

lukster · « **Reply #513 on:** May 29, 2006, 01:27:13 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Chairboy
Lukster: I appreciate the strengths of your convictions, but I think they may be misplaced when it comes to finding a faith-hole to put me into.

My lack of faith should not be seen as an attack on you or yours.

I don't see your faith as an attack on mine unless you are out there campaining to prevent me from exercising my faith in public. I know what I believe and why I believe it. No one's opinion is likely to affect me one way or the other though I am open to discussion on my beliefs.

SaburoS · « **Reply #514 on:** May 29, 2006, 01:32:55 PM »

Let's put it this way for those that believe in God (existance of God, whatever):

Is it possible that the Atheist could be right*?

Yes or no, then explaination is fine.

Here's where "honest" comes into play

Added:
* That God does not exist. God is the entity made up by man.

SaburoS · « **Reply #515 on:** May 29, 2006, 01:35:49 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by lukster
I don't see your faith as an attack on mine unless you are out there campaining to prevent me from exercising my faith in public. I know what I believe and why I believe it. No one's opinion is likely to affect me one way or the other though I am open to discussion on my beliefs.

Exercising your belief in public on an individual basis, I'll never have a problem with.
It is when it becomes an organized event with perceived official govt backing that I see blurring the lines of Separation of Church and State.
That's a dangerous line to cross IMHO.

lukster · « **Reply #516 on:** May 29, 2006, 01:39:47 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by SaburoS
Let's put it this way for those that believe in God (existance of God, whatever):

Is it possible that the Atheist could be right?

Yes or no, then explaination is fine.

Here's where "honest" comes into play

Faith means believing in something without proof. Do I believe there is God, yes. Do I understand that belief means I could be wrong? Of course. If that doesn't spell it out, yes, Atheist could be right in their belief that there is no God.

lukster · « **Reply #517 on:** May 29, 2006, 01:41:15 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by SaburoS
Exercising your belief in public on an individual basis, I'll never have a problem with.
It is when it becomes an organized event with perceived official govt backing that I see blurring the lines of Separation of Church and State.
That's a dangerous line to cross IMHO.

I agree. I do not want state supported religion. I do want state supported freedom to exercise religion.

SaburoS · « **Reply #518 on:** May 29, 2006, 02:10:56 PM »

You get that now, don't you?
Has the govt ever said you, on an individual basis, could not pray?

moot · « **Reply #519 on:** May 29, 2006, 03:15:41 PM »

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Do I understand that belief means I could be wrong?

There's no such thing as right or wrong, with regards to faith.
You're arguing the unarguable... No offense, but this thread is turning into a broken record.

Sapiens nihil affirmat quod non probat; even stoneage romans already knew it.

Arlo · « **Reply #520 on:** May 29, 2006, 04:35:32 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Booz
I have to assume it based on the cute snip & reply you provided since, it failed to address anything in my post. What is your point?

You mean you really couldn't see the relation between your claim that E=MC^2 proves there is no God and Einstein's quote?

Arlo · « **Reply #521 on:** May 29, 2006, 04:37:58 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by SaburoS
You get that now, don't you?
Has the govt ever said you, on an individual basis, could not pray?

Whens the last time it, on an individual basis, forced you to? Pretty sure it's not gonna become a threat anytime soon.

Booz · « **Reply #522 on:** May 29, 2006, 07:23:13 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Arlo
You mean you really couldn't see the relation between your claim that E=MC^2 proves there is no God and Einstein's quote?

Uh, no, E=MC^2 answers where matter came from in response to Lasz's question I quoted. It wasn't a proof of no god.

as to Einstein's quote:

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." Source: from a 1954 letter to an atheist. (Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press, 1981.)

Holden McGroin · « **Reply #523 on:** May 29, 2006, 07:34:07 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Booz
Uh, no, E=MC^2 answers where matter came from...

Actually it only shows the equivalence of matter and energy. Origins are up to the reader.

Arlo · « **Reply #524 on:** May 29, 2006, 08:18:40 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Booz
Uh, no, E=MC^2 answers where matter came from in response to Lasz's question I quoted. It wasn't a proof of no god.

as to Einstein's quote:

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious[/b] then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." Source: from a 1954 letter to an atheist. (Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press, 1981.) [/B]

Then you actually realize you've proven nothing, yourself. Very good.

It's well known and understood that Einstein wasn't a fan of religion. It's also well known that he had a spiritual side. So much for the continued confusion on the part of some Atheists between religion and faith. Context can only be appreciated when you can understand the difference.

"I want to know God's thoughts; the rest are details."

"I am convinced that He (God) does not play dice."

"God is subtle but he is not malicious."

"God does not care about our mathematical difficulties. He integrates empirically."

"The further the spiritual evolution of mankind advances, the more certain it seems to me that the path to genuine religiosity[/b]* does not lie through the fear of life[/b], and the fear of death[/b], and blind[/b] faith, but through striving after rational[/b] knowledge."

*spiritual discipline

- the misunderstood/understood Al Einstein, who's quotations so far listed sit quite well with me and my beliefs. Not sure how they all sit with your's but that's your business.