Author Topic: Question to the furballers. (Read 1954 times)

lazs2 · « **Reply #15 on:** May 31, 2006, 02:32:19 PM »

I probly go on the wrong days but I like to call the AvA arena the "all LW all the time" arena... seems that they allways figure out a way to have 190's in the thing.

The AvA arena is exactly what is wrong with a AvA rolling plane set. while the matchups are not bad... they would be ten times better with the ten times the variety if it was not AvA.

let's say... AvA... you have a spit vs a 109... every single fight will be some amount of 109's vs some amount of spits... one strength against another.

now... a non AvA set with spit and 109... you could have fights like above plus 109 spit combos in any of a myriad of numbers vs ... all 109's or all spits or any number of combinations of em... 1 spit and 9 109's vs 10 spits or 5 spits and 5 109's or...well, you get the picture...

The more planes added to the set that are useful... the more the possible combos.

I don't think the LW dominated AvA will ever do that tho.

lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's

uberhun · « **Reply #16 on:** May 31, 2006, 02:40:46 PM »

The same story different author. Nothing to see here move on!

Oh by the way now for something completely different! (Monty Python)

TexMurphy · « **Reply #17 on:** May 31, 2006, 03:21:55 PM »

When it comes to the TnB vs BnZ I can agree with that BUT ONLY when its 190s vs Spit5s... that is a horribly booring matchup....

Other then that you dont really see TnB vs BnZ..

I also find it funny that you guys mention numbers as a problem.

What do you rather have 200-400 hoarding cherry picking pilots or 10-30 that actually wana fight and arnt timid?

I mean for me its not how many its HOW they fight....

Tex

wetrat · « **Reply #18 on:** May 31, 2006, 03:33:28 PM »

the AvA gameplay is even more boring than the MA, IMOTBH.

Kev367th · « **Reply #19 on:** May 31, 2006, 03:34:54 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
I probly go on the wrong days but I like to call the AvA arena the "all LW all the time" arena... seems that they allways figure out a way to have 190's in the thing.

The AvA arena is exactly what is wrong with a AvA rolling plane set. while the matchups are not bad... they would be ten times better with the ten times the variety if it was not AvA.

let's say... AvA... you have a spit vs a 109... every single fight will be some amount of 109's vs some amount of spits... one strength against another.

now... a non AvA set with spit and 109... you could have fights like above plus 109 spit combos in any of a myriad of numbers vs ... all 109's or all spits or any number of combinations of em... 1 spit and 9 109's vs 10 spits or 5 spits and 5 109's or...well, you get the picture...

The more planes added to the set that are useful... the more the possible combos.

I don't think the LW dominated AvA will ever do that tho.

lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's

Actually it seems more setup to make sure the Spit XVI is excluded as much as possible -

2 recent examples -
Sink the Tirpitz - Nov 1944, Spit of choice would be LF IXc/e, (IXe being the XVI). What did they put in, the VIII.
Italy - Was set yet again late 1944, Spit would have LF XIc/e, yet again XVI excluded. Totally ignoring the SAAF, RAF units that used it (LF IXe). In fact one of the XVI skins I did was used in the Italian campaign.

So it's an AvA arena in as much as they can set things up to exclude what they dont want even if it was there.

You will also notice that some LW rides are added earlier than they were available, with a coinciding lame excuse for it.

For e.g
Aug/Nov 1944
add Fw190D (yes, the early ones didn't quite
have the performance of ours for another month
or so, but in light of all the allied rides
available, I think this is ok)

Another month? Try not available till at earliest Jan 1945, they were ready to be deployed at our boost settings end Dec 1944.

Clifra Jones · « **Reply #20 on:** May 31, 2006, 04:11:20 PM »

The AVA can be fun if the number are good and the setup is working. Other times it's not. It certainly is not a Furballing arena where you can get into an engagement quickly, die, re-up and get right back into it.

The thing that some of the "win the war" types don't understand is that some of us are looking for "quality" air-to-air combat. Now that can be part of the "win the war" aspect of the game but for the most part it is not. Mostly because of the way 80% of the "win the war" type play the game. They strive to avoid the enemy as opposed to engage the enemy. They use the tactics of overwhelming force, eliminate any chance of opposition by flattening a base, fly 5 sectors behind the line to attack an undefended field. All of which completely stops any chance of a good air-to-air engagement. Does it achieve their desired goal? Yes. Does it make those of us that want to engage another pilot in air combat want to joins their effort? Most times no.

There have been many times where I have had fun participating in an effort to capture a base. Most of these were attempts to capture a strategically important base that it was known was going to be heavily defended. Same goes for defending bases.

If you search these boards or monitor 200 you will find that what the "furballers" complain about is not that the "win the war" types wanting to capture bases or win the reset. It is the griefers who will fly bombers over a furball and flatten the fighter hangers with no intention of taking the base because they think that will make the "furballers" join them in their "war effort". Nothing could be further from the truth.

Oldman731 · « **Reply #21 on:** May 31, 2006, 04:22:08 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
now... a non AvA set with spit and 109... you could have fights like above plus 109 spit combos in any of a myriad of numbers vs ... all 109's or all spits or any number of combinations of em... 1 spit and 9 109's vs 10 spits or 5 spits and 5 109's or...well, you get the picture...

We heard you, and others, say this. So we tried it. Lots of people came. For one night, sometimes two. They they all melted away.

Only conclusion I've been able to come up with is (1) people gravitate to the arena with most numbers; (2) people want to stick with their squads, which are in the MA and which, for inertia or other reasons, can't be moved to AvA; and (3) people want to fly their favorite planes.

As to (1), it's a vicious cycle, but a good point is made by Tex that quality fights aren't dependent on numbers. Hey, bring your friends, I'm sure some will always come, and we've had some folks do just that with good results.

As to (2), I don't think there's anything we can ever do to change this.

As to (3).....well, hey, there ARE weeks when your favorite plane is available, stop in then. We change the setups frequently - weekly, if not daily.

AvA will never appeal to the "goal" crowd of war winners and team players, but I'm with Tex in bemusement that more of the "I just want a good fight" crowd don't stop in there more often.

- oldman

Oldman731 · « **Reply #22 on:** May 31, 2006, 04:27:43 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kev367th
Actually it seems more setup to make sure the Spit XVI is excluded as much as possible.

This is the other side of Lazs' coin. No matter how many planes you enable in a smaller arena, if the Spits are enabled, everyone will fly the Spits. The fights then become very lopsided, with the guys in FWs and G6s trying to figure out how long they really want to keep getting shot down before they quit for the night.

Having said that, there is a vociferous Spit-proponent group in the AvA, so we also run setups that feature that plane. Most fun was probably when we had all the Spits v. the Ki84.

- oldman

Kev367th · « **Reply #23 on:** May 31, 2006, 04:49:56 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Oldman731
This is the other side of Lazs' coin. No matter how many planes you enable in a smaller arena, if the Spits are enabled, everyone will fly the Spits. The fights then become very lopsided, with the guys in FWs and G6s trying to figure out how long they really want to keep getting shot down before they quit for the night.

Having said that, there is a vociferous Spit-proponent group in the AvA, so we also run setups that feature that plane. Most fun was probably when we had all the Spits v. the Ki84.

- oldman

So basically exclude a plane because it's popular, so much for the AvA.
Perhaps a rename is required - Axis (including LW planes before service dates) v Allies (excluding as much as possible, Spits esp XVI)

Shame the Germans couldn't do the same, isn't it.

Bronk · « **Reply #24 on:** May 31, 2006, 04:56:52 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kev367th
So basically exclude a plane because it's popular, so much for the AvA.
Perhaps a rename is required - Axis (including LW planes before service dates) v Allies (excluding as much as possible, Spits esp XVI)

Shame the Germans couldn't do the same, isn't it.

Imagine if HT would have labeled it a LF IX.
Omg the whine .

Bronk

Grits · « **Reply #25 on:** May 31, 2006, 06:29:19 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kev367th
So basically exclude a plane because it's popular, so much for the AvA.

No, they exclude it because if they include it, there will be ZERO players willing to fly LW. No LW=no arena.

Quote

Originally posted by Bronk
Imagine if HT would have labeled it a LF IX.
Omg the whine .

Doesnt matter what its named, it still would be very rarely used.

TexMurphy · « **Reply #26 on:** May 31, 2006, 06:30:18 PM »

Kev...

I agree that better dates should be set for introduction... would be great if you could input with your knowledge when the rotations are set up...

But for me it aint that crusial its the quality of the fight that matters for me... and AvA has great fights...

Tex

Slash27 · « **Reply #27 on:** May 31, 2006, 07:30:48 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kev367th
Actually it seems more setup to make sure the Spit XVI is excluded as much as possible -

2 recent examples -
Sink the Tirpitz - Nov 1944, Spit of choice would be LF IXc/e, (IXe being the XVI). What did they put in, the VIII.
Italy - Was set yet again late 1944, Spit would have LF XIc/e, yet again XVI excluded. Totally ignoring the SAAF, RAF units that used it (LF IXe). In fact one of the XVI skins I did was used in the Italian campaign.

So it's an AvA arena in as much as they can set things up to exclude what they dont want even if it was there.

You will also notice that some LW rides are added earlier than they were available, with a coinciding lame excuse for it.

For e.g
Aug/Nov 1944
add Fw190D (yes, the early ones didn't quite
have the performance of ours for another month
or so, but in light of all the allied rides
available, I think this is ok)

Another month? Try not available till at earliest Jan 1945, they were ready to be deployed at our boost settings end Dec 1944.

What a weak joke of an argument this is.

The point of the Tirpitz set up was to highlight a player suggested F4U/F6F vs LW set up. If you would have bothered to read the forum you would have known this.

Good point on the D9 though. Very relevent:aok

If you dont want to fly the AvA, fine and dandy. Not your cup of tea? No problem. Its your $15 and your choice on whats fun. More power to you. No need for the anti AvA propaganda.

E25280 · « **Reply #28 on:** May 31, 2006, 10:50:25 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kev367th
So basically exclude a plane because it's popular, so much for the AvA.
Perhaps a rename is required - Axis (including LW planes before service dates) v Allies (excluding as much as possible, Spits esp XVI)

Hmm . .

D9 = Eny 18, if I am not mistaken.

Spit XVI = Eny 5
P-51D = Eny 6
P-47N = Eny 10 (I believe)
Typhoon = Eny 10

So obviously it is SOOO imbalancing to introduce the D9 a tad early.

All you have to do is look at the Rhine map after Tempests are enabled to see why some planes are limited at times. Regardless of the planes that are enabled on the Axis side, there always seems to be a fairly decent mix of aircraft (2-3 different 109s, a couple 190s, the OCCASIONAL 262 in late war), but on the Allied side you are surprised if you see anything but Spit XVIs or Tempests after they are enabled.

Kev367th · « **Reply #29 on:** May 31, 2006, 11:13:25 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by E25280
Hmm . .

D9 = Eny 18, if I am not mistaken.

Spit XVI = Eny 5
P-51D = Eny 6
P-47N = Eny 10 (I believe)
Typhoon = Eny 10

So obviously it is SOOO imbalancing to introduce the D9 a tad early.

All you have to do is look at the Rhine map after Tempests are enabled to see why some planes are limited at times. Regardless of the planes that are enabled on the Axis side, there always seems to be a fairly decent mix of aircraft (2-3 different 109s, a couple 190s, the OCCASIONAL 262 in late war), but on the Allied side you are surprised if you see anything but Spit XVIs or Tempests after they are enabled.

So the allies have to struggle through late 1941, to mid 42 with Spit Vbs vs FW's, but OMG can't give the allies the same advantage late war, you have to enable D9 2-3 months early.
Hope you realise how LAME that sounds.

Any RAF fighter scenario (obviously depending on what theatre/what you are trying to re-create) from mid 44 has to include the XVI (LF IXe), LF versions of the IX very almost exclusively the only version built 1943 onwards.
It got the 'e' wing June/July 1944.

I'd like to see it with 50cal or .303 options (i.e LF IXc. LF IXe), then see the excuses for leaving it out of mid 43 scenarios.