Author Topic: Luftwaffe accounts of "The Forked Tailed Devil (Read 11212 times)

F4UDOA · « **Reply #150 on:** July 25, 2006, 06:43:11 PM »

The dive limit on the P-38 needs to be put in context with the P-51D which could be flown into incredibly high speed dives and still be well under control.

I have read many annecdotes of pilots in combat dives in excess of 600MPH IAS (up to 650MPH I believe) at roughly 10K. Sounds incredible but that is from after action reports. Who knows what the actual speed was.

Debonair · « **Reply #151 on:** July 25, 2006, 07:13:11 PM »

i bet someone here has a P-51 POH or similar doc that has an IAS to CAS conversion chart

F4UDOA · « **Reply #152 on:** July 25, 2006, 08:13:38 PM »

The redline for the P-51D is 505MPH at 10,000FT.

Knegel · « **Reply #153 on:** July 26, 2006, 01:42:41 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by MiloMorai
Knegel,

in a LW pilot intervue I once read, the guy said flying a 109 above 30,000ft was like walking a tightrope. This not a knock of the 109 for most a/c had to be flown carefully above 30,000ft.

Thats what i mean,

we need to see the report in comparison to other planes in that high alt.

The Brits probably was used to the Spitfires up there and i have no doubt that they did behave much better regarding the handling.

The P38H´s and earlyer maybe had their best alt below 20.000ft, the rated alt was around 20.000ft and the airframe itself was better below 20.000ft and in the pacific the P38´s was so much faster than all 41-44 Japanese planes that its drawbacks dont count, but in the ETO they got performence probelms below 20.000ft where the german planes was pretty good(specialy FW190´s) , thats why i consider the best relative alt of the P38´s between 20000 and 30000ft, despite its handycaps.

Afaik the FW190´s did start to handle bad above 24000ft, not only cause the power decreasement, but due to the high wing(lift)load.

And for sure the P38 was obsolete as high alt fighter when planes like the Ta152, 109G´s with high alt DB´s or GM1, Ki-84 etc did appear, which had a much better performence up there than their predecessors, but to late and to few. 1942-early 44 the P38 imho was not to bad in the ETO.

Btw, what about the fowler flaps of the P38, didnt they help to solve some problems??

Greetings,

gripen · « **Reply #154 on:** July 26, 2006, 02:16:57 AM »

Knegel,
Comparison at high altitude has been posted here several times. If you are unable to use search, here is direct link. Basicly same phenomena can be found from the Widewing's post above. Comparisons on critical mach number has been posted here several times as well.

gripen

Angus · « **Reply #155 on:** July 26, 2006, 05:55:52 AM »

Well, by the time the P38 was getting "common" in the MTO and then the ETO, much of the fighting had drawn a little lower than before.
But the bomber escorts were always quite high though.

FrodeMk3 · « **Reply #156 on:** July 26, 2006, 06:36:44 AM »

Now that I've read through just about every post, I want to just point out one thing:NOBODY mentioned that the top 2 scoring American Aces(That includes both the ETO and Pacific theatres) flew the...P...3...8.

And I'm not even a P-38 cultist.

FrodeMk3 · « **Reply #157 on:** July 26, 2006, 06:38:07 AM »

BTW, that would be Major(s) Richard Bong and Thomas McGuire.

Kweassa · « **Reply #158 on:** July 26, 2006, 07:58:26 AM »

No disrespect toward Mr.Bong or McGuire.. but really, how many Germans did they shoot down?

Again, no disrespect meant for the US military in the Pacific, but I don't think its fair to say the competition the Marines and the Navy met in the Pacific, exactly matches the levels of competition the P-47s or P-51s had to face in the ETO.

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #159 on:** July 26, 2006, 09:27:26 AM »

To day that the Japanese the US faced in the PTO were somehow below average or not comparable to the skill of the Nazis is laughable. Especially when a lot of the Nazis padded their score on obsolete Soviet aircraft.

ack-ack

Bruno · « **Reply #160 on:** July 26, 2006, 10:29:34 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Now that I've read through just about every post, I want to just point out one thing:NOBODY mentioned that the top 2 scoring American Aces(That includes both the ETO and Pacific theatres) flew the...P...3...8.

And I'm not even a P-38 cultist.

What does score matter? Even the top Croatian ace of the war clainmed more kills then either of those 2.

Mato Dukovac 44 confirmed / 1 unconfirmed / 15.(Kroat)/JG 52
Cvitan Galić 38 / 5 15.(Kroat)/JG 52

Romanians did even better:
Constantin Cantacuzino dpending on the source had anywhere from 56-69 kills
(56 confirmed / 13 unconfirmed) Gr 5,7 & 9 vân
Alexandru Serbănescu / 47 / 8 / Gr 7 & 9 vân

How about Hungarians:
Dezsö Szentgyörgyi 30 / 1 / 101/2 V.Szd.
Lajos Tóth 26 101/2 V.Szd.

Most of these claims came while flying 109Gs defending Hungarian cities from Ami heavy bombers etc...

What does this mean, well nothing. Just like your point about Bong and McGuire. Kill totals alone don't say much about an aircraft, these reflect more about the pilots. There's no doubt that as the war progressed the Ami's had both a quantitative advantage, not just in the number of aircraft but in the number of highly skilled pilots, and a qualitative advantage, not just in superior equipment but the average Ami pilot was more well trained / skilled then the either the Luftwaffe and certainly the Japanese.

These reasons for this are many but none of it has to do with 'how great the P-38s was'.

Oldman731 · « **Reply #161 on:** July 26, 2006, 11:18:25 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kweassa
No disrespect toward Mr.Bong or McGuire.. but really, how many Germans did they shoot down?

Again, no disrespect meant for the US military in the Pacific, but I don't think its fair to say the competition the Marines and the Navy met in the Pacific, exactly matches the levels of competition the P-47s or P-51s had to face in the ETO.

Probably this was true after mid-1942. Before then, the quality of the Japanese pilots, and the disparate capabilities of the aircraft involved, probably presented the Americans with the most formidable opposition they faced anywhere during the entire war.

- oldman

Angus · « **Reply #162 on:** July 26, 2006, 11:45:49 AM »

From the beginning of the Pacific war and well into the war, the Japanese pilots were VERY skilled. Yet the USA won the match. How? The hardware (Speed, ROC/Zoom, High speed handling, firepower, armour and RADIO), the tactics and the teamwork. Eventually, there was the numbers too...
The P38 was one of the workhorses there, and one of the first to totally outclass the Zeke (Well, or the Hayabusha), as well as being a better attacker than anything the Japs had at the time.
In Europe and the Med, there's something different. 109F's and G's, and 190's. So, suddenly the P38 has no particular superiority in combat, but is yet able to hold it's own in a fight, - at certain altitudes, - which, mind you, is something that all the fighters share....
And it was very well multy-role. Don't see 109's doing much of the stuff the 38's did.

Bruno · « **Reply #163 on:** July 26, 2006, 03:41:09 PM »

Quote

Before then, the quality of the Japanese pilots, and the disparate capabilities of the aircraft involved, probably presented the Americans with the most formidable opposition they faced anywhere during the entire war.

That's just silly. The only aircraft the Japanese had in use that could be considered 'superior' was the A6M2 which was poorly armed and poorly armored. Despite it's climb advantage and higher speed are certain altitudes the F4F could more then hold its own. The only time the F4F (-3 or -4) could get into trouble was if the the Ami pilot played into the strengths of the Zero.

IJA fighters were slow, had even worse armament then the A6M2 and were just as fragile. Japanese pilot combat tactics were as out dated as their infantry tactics even before the war started. They may have had good technical fliers but their leadership and tactics were crap and were so through out the war.

IJA/N bombers were certainly very capable but only so far as they had air superiority.

USAAF fighters were even better matched against the Japanese then the USN fighters. The only exception was maybe the P-39s but they were still fast enough to escape. Even the P-40s gave out more then they took. The only real threat to the Ami early Ami Pacific front was the lack of equipment early on. Pilot quality and capablility was well in favor of the US.

If the Japanese were such a threat then surely the US would have re-thought their 'Europe First' commitment. The only real successes the Japanese had were from surprise or built from that surprise. They spent the rest of the war getting beat all the way across the Pacific.

Angus · « **Reply #164 on:** July 26, 2006, 07:10:58 PM »

Woot?
Rack an early F4F against the Zeke. Or a P40 If the Zeke makes it past the merge and the fight goes low and slow, the Zeke has the upper hand.
And armament? Twin 20mm's always make a bit....

VS the Zeke, the P38 would count as the first US fighter that is flat out superior. Of course, soon thereafter, there were others like F6F, FM2, F4U and such.
But first,,,,P38.

BTW, the early engagements were against other and older Japanese fighters than the Zeke. Slow speed, no radio, twin mg's, fixed undercarriage etc. (some or all). Even a HurryI is faster than those.