Idea discussed at the con.

[Simaril]

I think its important to keep the goal strictly in mind -- it sounds like that
goal is to reduce suicide attacks without trashing everything else.

Hangars that pop up and down like Jack-in-the-Boxes would get frustrating. I don't think that idea would be much fun.

The smoke idea got me thinking, but the excellent objections raised show it to be impractical. Hangar needs to be either up or down, or it'll encourage now-or-never rushes.

Requiring drops from the bombsight would not help at all. It's too easy to set salvo for 20, nose down to 60 degrees -- and either macro or manually hit F6-fire2 in less than a second. Especially with the new, slower autotrim there'd be NO effect on whatever "accuracy" the pork and auger crowd now enjoys.

An assigned maximum drop angle has been extensively discussed before (This thread exhaustively reviews data including pics and original drop angle tables ) and rejected by HiTech as "arbitrary" (HiTech's response is right here ). One might suggest that limiting drop angles is no more arbitrary than hangar destruction written in vanishing ink, BUT HTC has always put a premium on accuracy in flight physics, and adjusted the capture mechanisms freely for gameplay's sake. I think thats the right way to do it, and I wouldnt compromise for this situation.




How about merging a couple ideas together:

After killing damage to a hangar (or carrier?),  build in a 20 second lag before actually dropping the hangar. Twenty secs is plenty of time to discourage suicidal behavior, but it isnt long enough to seriously impede the rest of us.



The idea keeps it simple -- you HAVE to stay alilve for the damage to count, period.

You cant really say its gamey, because in real life pilots wanted to live the entire way home!!

20 secs isnt long enough to get in the way of action's flow, and if you try to up from the hangar in the post-explosion lag you risk getting popped with a death when the blast radius is applied. So, its a self regulating, "whaddya expect when you up in a crater?" solution.

[x0847Marine]

Originally posted by hitech
At the con we were discussing changing building down times based on how long you lived after destroying a target.

After doing some detailed thinking about it, relized the down time is problematic when mutliple people have hit a targe. But was wondering what people thought of the following.

Based on how long you lived after hiting a target, currently im thinking around 2 minutes. If you die a portion of your damage is removed.

As an example 2 people drop bombs on a hangar. 1 does 2k damage, the last does 1k damage and destroys the hangar.

The 2nd player dies after 1 min. The system would remove 1min/2min i.e. 50% of the damgage aplied to the hangar. The hangar would then reserect with 2.5k damage left on it.


Thoughts?

HiTech

So if someone dives on a cv and sinks it, then dies 30 sec later... the cv will re-appear ?

I think the chaos of hangers / buildings / boats popping up and down would be a riot.

An entirely new score matrix that factors in a negative "Kamikaze score" along with fighter, bomber etc. Make sure not landing, or being KIA, hurts a little bit in the score / rank dept. Lets see how often the score hookers decide to Kamikaze stuff then, eh?

Maybe allow 5 freebies a month... just because trees happen, any after 5 "cha ching"

I'm sure whatever you decide HT, some folks will cry like spanked newborns... but please try something.

[Iceman24]

I like the angle limiter idea myself... Just make it so if the buff's pitch up or down more than 5-10 degrees then they can't release the bombs, think about a bomb bay on a B24 for a second, if your pitched down at a 45-60 degree angle the bomb will not fall straight down and out through the bay doors like they would if you were level, the bomb would drop and most likely fall inside the fuesalge of the plane because of the angle at which your releasing... You can even make it to where if they try do dive bomb in heavy buffs that the bomb actually explodes inside the plane and kills the pilot  with the exception of buffs that were designed to dive bomb like the JU88's...

Just for kicks I would like to see your idea be emplemented HiTech. I'd be willing to bet that a good 70% of base taking will stop, simply because most of the base taking hoards suck at getting there plane back home, they don't know anything about tactics, its all drop your load and bail out/auger, most are good for 1, maybe 2 passes before they get smoked (notice I said most, not all, theres some good squads out there that work together well in base taking, the majority are a bunch of hoard monks though) I kind of like your idea, it gives them something to work for it will only help them to get better by making them try and make it home or at least try and live for another 2 minutes.

**EDITED  I wrote this before page 4 was even up LOL, wow fast responses LOL

[Simaril]

I also think that whatever comes out of this, the community will creatively apply the permutations, adapt, and find a good solution to the new situation's challenges.

Iceman24 -- check out this thread and HT's negative response to the drop angle limit idea.  here




Applause to HT for letting us play with the ideas, to apply some of that sneaky creativity ahead of time and poke the holes that would have shown up anyway....

[Iceman24]

thats what i was looking for Simaril thanks bro
I wrote my last post before page 4 had even begun, lots of quick responses LOL

I must have missed HiTech's response a while back when that was written, after reading his response I can definately understand why this hasn't been done yet.

[Iceman24]

"I also think that whatever comes out of this, the community will creatively apply the permutations, adapt, and find a good solution to the new situation's challenges. "

I totally agree with that 100%, looking back at everyones post's it seems that basically everyone wants something done to stop the dive bombing heavies by using one idea or another. Coming up with a solution is 1 thing, but at least most people are agreeing that this is definately becoming a nuissance and needs to be stopped, that i like

[Ouch]

HT,

I don't think 'rebuilding' the building would be the way to go.  I would go back to reducing the down time.

A building takes, say 10 minutes to rebuild after it is destroyed with X number of points of damage.

IF I destroy a building completely by myself, and die immediately, it's still down, but some percentage of the down time is reduced.  Using your earlier example, say 50%.

If I did the last 25% of the damage to kill something, and die, then the down time would be reduced by 25% * your earlier 50%.

This way, Yes, you killed it.  Yes, it stays down.  It just comes back faster.



I think that possibly the BEST fix would be the pitch limiter. You have to be LEVEL (+ or - 10 degrees) to drop bombs from a (non-dive) bomber.  And I'm not talking about pulling up at the last instant and opening doors :-)  IIRC, that is also closer to RL.  If your not level, odds are your bombs would jam in the doors or miss entirely.

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Simaril
The idea keeps it simple -- you HAVE to stay alilve for the damage to count, period.

You cant really say its gamey, because in real life pilots wanted to live the entire way home!!

Can imagine the howls if the same reasoning was appiled to -

a) Guys sitting 600-800 off a buffs 6 with pilot wounds, bits missing, oil/fuel/rad hits just for the all important kill. Just imagine if he had to survive 2 mins after downing the buff, else the buff reappears and he doesn't get the kill.

b) The famous AH2 conga line - How many pilots IRL sat behind a con spraying away with a hoard on his tail. More likely be trying to get the hell outta there. Put a 2 min time limit on him also.

c) The infamous plane on fire - You really think guys were more intent on getting a kill than bailing out? Put a 2 min time limit on him also.

Just as well this isn't "real life" so any comparisons are mute.



Sorry, time limits aren't the answer.
Can't count the amount of times I've dove in on a field porked the troops and a split second later got the 1 ping ack pilot kill.

If nothing else all you will see is D9's and Lala doing pork runs so the can 'extend' away from the field. Time limit solves nothing.


Ouch - Sorry a 1k egg does 1k of damage, should quite rightly be independent of 'alive' time. Also as per previous poster THIS IS NOT REAL LIFE.
Where during WW2 was there perfect Summer Days EVERY day, no night, guarenteed 75% fuel availabilty?

[MOSQ]

Originally posted by Souless
I dont like the idea.It would bring a "gamey aspect" to something I want as much realism as possible.
 

Hangars that rebuild from total destruction to fully operational facilities in 15 minutes isn't gamey? Wouldn't it be more realistic if it took at least 3 days to make a hangar operational?


C'mon, the whole thing is a game!

[SFCHONDO]

If this stops the nuggets that buzz in and pork troops, ord, and fuel in there LALA's then auger, then I am all for it.

[Simaril]

Originally posted by Kev367th
Can imagine the howls if the same reasoning was appiled to -

a) Guys sitting 600-800 off a buffs 6 with pilot wounds, ....
b) The famous AH2 conga line - .....
c) The infamous plane on fire - .....
Just as well this isn't "real life" so any comparisons are mute.



Sorry, time limits aren't the answer. Time limit solves nothing.
...snip.........  

I disagree completely.

Don't make the mistake of confusing the simulation parts (ie in flight) with the game parts (like hangars limiting ability to take off from a field).

Originally posted by Kev367th

 Sorry a 1k egg does 1k of damage, should quite rightly be independent of 'alive' time. Also as per previous poster THIS IS NOT REAL LIFE.
Where during WW2 was there perfect Summer Days EVERY day, no night, guarenteed 75% fuel availabilty?

Sure, a 1k egg does 1K damage -- but how does doing 3k damage to a structure prevent tanks from appearing??????



Simple, because that's the way HT set it up. And if the GAME part can be made better by tweaking some of the AUTOMATICALLY ARBITRARY rules HT created, then why shouldn't the change be made?

Personally, 2 minutes is excessive when the goal is to discourage pork-n-auger. That's why I like the 20 sec lag in applying damage --

and lets be honest, if you cant stay alive 20 secs after the bombs drop, weren't you doing something gamey anyway?

[ghi]

Originally posted by hitech
At the con we were discussing changing building down times based on how long you lived after destroying a target.

After doing some detailed thinking about it, relized the down time is problematic when mutliple people have hit a targe. But was wondering what people thought of the following.

Based on how long you lived after hiting a target, currently im thinking around 2 minutes. If you die a portion of your damage is removed.

As an example 2 people drop bombs on a hangar. 1 does 2k damage, the last does 1k damage and destroys the hangar.

The 2nd player dies after 1 min. The system would remove 1min/2min i.e. 50% of the damgage aplied to the hangar. The hangar would then reserect with 2.5k damage left on it.


Thoughts?

HiTech

 
   I don't like the idea, imop the way it is now damage, and down time is fine for FHs/Bh,Vh etc, but i have few sugestions;

   1.  HQ  raids and intercepting them ussed to be one of the best organized fun actions in AH1,

  Sice AH2 came out you ruined that fun with new settings !!!

Why did you let at strat./country status the 4 damage steps for HQ,  i don't know what for !? , cuz HQ goes down all or nothing.  Soo if a bomber pilot climbs 1 hour and hit HQ with 30 000 lbs get nothing, just free comunity work.
 I sugest bring back the old damage setup in 4 steps and DON"T GIVE RESUP OPTION 30 min . This will ecorage players to attack/defend HQ.

 2. CVs  - imop are too soft many players complain about on BB,goes down with 8000 lbs, should be at least 15 000 lbs, not cuz is realistic, but the bombing is  too unrealistic precise, and the fun fights die too soon

[Iceman24]

"C'mon, the whole thing is a game!"

your correct, it is a game, but it a game modelled around being as realistic as possible without taking the fun out of it. Could a WWII figthter have been D600 behind a buff  spraying him looking for another kill, yes... Would he is another story, but it could be done. I don't think that there were many pilots that actually engaged in a turn fight say a 38 versus a zero like allot of us do everyday, but it could have been done. Now dive bombing in heavy lancs or B24's is a different story all together. Basically we are saying that this was IMPOSSIBLE to do. simply put, and backed up by Simarils post, it is impossible, the bombs would not and could not drop out.  I also doubt that in real life any pilots bailed out over enemy runways and took there .45 and shot planes as they appeared on the runway, but was it possible, sure, so that's why we can do it in our game, I doubt that there were any Lancs or B24's, or even ME262's that landed in real life on a carrier, but could it have been done, sure why not, that's why we can do it in this game

[smash]

I like the idea.  From my point of view it compensates for unrealistic survivability behavior.

[hitech]

Btw I in no way buy the more gammy idea.The fact that it would create a more will to live after drop, would make things less gammy.

Also the intent was allways all ground objects including ack.

The 2 min time was an example, 15 secs is to short, 1 min might work.

And so far from the responses and resones im leaning more to doing the implemtation.


HiTech