Author Topic: israel in war (Read 6249 times)

Hap · « **Reply #150 on:** July 18, 2006, 02:36:03 PM »

Ah, now I-C.

~~hap~~

BGBMAW · « **Reply #151 on:** July 19, 2006, 01:01:43 AM »

war can bring very good things

If you can Read Miliatry History Quartley

The Utlity of War by Victor Davis Hanson

Excellent article

-dead- · « **Reply #152 on:** July 19, 2006, 07:41:04 AM »

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Originally posted by Angus
Dead, there is a long way between a thug and submission.

With enough people in one country who share your view, say in Britain and the USA in the 30's (and there were many), we'd have had Hitler and Tojo as the world bosses. Nice.

Not sure I quite understand the first bit, but to try to answer: if you don't submit, and you do resist with force of arms then you become a thug. This assertion is based on your initial point, that deliberately target civilians is OK, if you're the correct nationality and come up with a suitably occult euphemism for it that sounds nicer in polite conversation and press conferences.

As to the hypothetical scale-ups of -dead-: You're overlooking the fact that if enough people shared my view in Japan and Germany in the 1930's, there wouldn't have been any fighting at all. It's no small coincidence that bad guys in Germany, Italy and Japan were all nationalists. It was died-in-the-wool patriots prepared to fight and die for their countries that started those wars. It usually is.

So much for that hypothetical scale-up.

As it is, what will probably happen is the whole drama will play out the same as it has in the past: the killing will go on for a bit, lots of civilians will die, then Israel will release some Hezbollah prisoners in exchange for the 2 soldiers. Unesay peace follows, with sporadic border disputes (of which this could have been one). Submission accomplished.

lazs2 · « **Reply #153 on:** July 19, 2006, 08:46:12 AM »

If you are a civilian in a country that is at war.... you will have to expect that your life will be in peril.

If you stay in a house that is say.... a rocket factory in the basement.... you will escalate your peril.

If you work in a factory that builds said rockets or components... this might also escalate your peril. You have choices. You can give up everything and try to beat feet. Not allways possible and sometimes bringing it's own dangers but... you can try.

You can move away from obvious target areas... You can have a revolution..

You have choices.

probly the most bizzare choice tho would be to make car bombs and blow up civilians or target civilians to strike terror in the population. Or.. shoot up crowds or blow yourself up in a crowd.

lazs

-dead- · « **Reply #154 on:** July 19, 2006, 12:03:56 PM »

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Originally posted by 1K3
I wonder if USA will fully support TAIWAN as they do with ISRAEL if CHINA decides to Annex Taiwan in the future...

An interesting topic - but one for another thread. My answer though would be "not likely".

For the PRC's part, US involvement = meddling in the internal affairs of the PRC = war with the US. That's non-negotiable for the PRC. They're real stubborn about that.

The problem for the US (aside from the heavier casualties and the risk of nuclear war) is paying for said war, especially without the PRC buying up US debt, and no doubt flooding the market with the debt they've already bought. All in all, I think Taiwan isn't worth it for the US, and the US knows it: after all the US doesn't give a hoot if Taiwan is a democracy or not, (Taiwan has spent most of it's life as a military dictatorship with the US' blessing), it's all about cash and strategic control, and Taiwan just isn't that much of a prize for the US (no bases, small military budget, no oil); for the PRC, it's a question of face and national pride.

But I also think the PRC would much rather buy Taiwan than invade it. And that's what their doing at the moment.

Angus · « **Reply #155 on:** July 19, 2006, 12:12:19 PM »

Dead: Get this here...and as a bonus for all surprize I will quote Lazs in such a way that I agree with him:

"If you stay in a house that is say.... a rocket factory in the basement.... you will escalate your peril."

There Lasz basically answers what I wanted to. There is no way to target those who hide within women and children, preferably with stocks of them over the basement. So TY Lazs

So, there is just a question of...

1: Submit to the basement thug (Ignore is there too)
2: Try to fight the basement thug with minimum collateral damage.
3: Go full war on the basement thug with full broadside

JG_Sunbird · « **Reply #156 on:** July 19, 2006, 01:10:43 PM »

7- Members should remember this board is aimed at a general audience. Posting pornographic or generally offensive text, images, links, etc. will not be tolerated. This includes attempts to bypass the profanity filter.

Elfie · « **Reply #157 on:** July 19, 2006, 01:45:01 PM »

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Originally posted by PonyDriver
Just what is all of Palestine? There has never been, in the history of man, a country of Palenstine.

There have been maps posted on this board before showing what is now Israel, as Palestine.

Elfie · « **Reply #158 on:** July 19, 2006, 01:50:12 PM »

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The Oslo accords committed Israel to recognise the teritorial intergrity of the West Bank and Gaza, and to a final status agreement withing 5 years. Settlement more than doubled after the Oslo accords were signed.

Ths Oslo Accords left the settlements issue to be decided at a later date.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Accords

In essence, the accords call for the withdrawal of Israeli forces from parts of the Gaza Strip and West Bank and affirm the Palestinian right to self-government within those areas through the creation of the Palestinian Authority. Palestinian rule would last for a five year interim period during which a permanent agreement would be negotiated (beginning not later than May 1996). Permanent issues such as Jerusalem, refugees, Israeli settlements in the area, security and borders were deliberately excluded from the Accords and left to be decided. The interim self-government was to be granted in phases.

Elfie · « **Reply #159 on:** July 19, 2006, 02:07:07 PM »

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They can, in fact, do exactly that but in the long term the costs outweigh the benefits. I mean they exposed thier soldiers to suicide bombers and other insurgency tactics on Hezbollah's home territory and what they hell did it change? Not only that but there are the economic costs and all they got was a piece of **** blasted landscape. At least the US is getting first dibs on Iraqi oil.

For 18 or so years Israel's occupation of southern Lebanon kept the PLO (and other terrorists) from shelling northern Israel with rockets and artillery. It provided a buffer zone to help ensure the safety of Israeli citizens.

Elfie · « **Reply #160 on:** July 19, 2006, 02:12:20 PM »

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Originally posted by Edbert1
Through conquest in wars they did not start. I think that is an important point.

That depends on your point of view really. In 1967 (the 6 Day War) Israel, knowing she was about to be attacked by Egypt, Syria and Jordan launched a pre-emptive strike and in 6 days captured the Sinai, Gaza Strip, Golan Heights and the West Bank.

Some will say that because Israel is the one that physically attacked first, that they started the 6 Day War. Imo.....if you know, beyond any reasonable doubt that you are about to be attacked, and strike first....you are still NOT the aggressor. Others though, will have a different view.

*edit* My apologies folks, I got a bit behind on this thread and had some catching up to do.

-dead- · « **Reply #161 on:** July 20, 2006, 12:27:49 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Angus
Dead: Get this here...and as a bonus for all surprize I will quote Lazs in such a way that I agree with him:

"If you stay in a house that is say.... a rocket factory in the basement.... you will escalate your peril."

There Lasz basically answers what I wanted to. There is no way to target those who hide within women and children, preferably with stocks of them over the basement. So TY Lazs

So, there is just a question of...

1: Submit to the basement thug (Ignore is there too)
2: Try to fight the basement thug with minimum collateral damage.
3: Go full war on the basement thug with full broadside

Good to see you're still using the PR PC euphemism "collateral damage" for killing civilians.

It's a nice new justification, but sadly the end result is still that options 2 & 3 deliberate target civilians. In essence, all you're saying is that you think some things are worth killing civilians for. And that means you too are the basement thug, ready to kill civilians in order to achieve your goal. Both thugs feel fully justified in killing these civilians, because their purpose, their goal is more important than these civilians' lives. The only way to tell the two thugs apart is their efficiency. Thugs with jets always kill more civilians than the thugs without.

The above scenario of the basement rocket factory etc is of course hypothetical and therefore rather ideal - real life is usually a lot more dodgy - there's a lot of bombing of civilians going on without the flimsy moral cover of said rocket factory, or any Hizbollah involvement. Some of it looks as downright deliberate as Hizbollah.

Holden McGroin · « **Reply #162 on:** July 20, 2006, 01:48:11 AM »

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Originally posted by -dead-
Good to see you're still using the PR PC euphemism "collateral damage" for killing civilians.

It's a nice new justification, but sadly the end result is still that options 2 & 3 deliberate(ly) target civilians. In essence, all you're saying is that you think some things are worth killing civilians for.

No, you deliberately target the thugs.

A police sniper in a hostage situation might take the shot to try to kill the hostage taker even though there is a chance the hostage would be hurt or killed. If the hostage is killed it is unintententional. The intent was to kill the criminal and save the hostage.

-dead- · « **Reply #163 on:** July 20, 2006, 02:47:39 AM »

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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
No, you deliberately target the thugs.

A police sniper in a hostage situation might take the shot to try to kill the hostage taker even though there is a chance the hostage would be hurt or killed. If the hostage is killed it is unintententional. The intent was to kill the criminal and save the hostage.

Try running that example using the actual weapons involved: using a 500lb bomb instead of a sniper rifle, you are deliberately targeting the hostages and anybody else who happens to be in a 60-80m radius as well. It is no longer their unintentional killing, due to the choice of weapon. Deliberately using a bomb can only mean you intend to kill the hostages too, ergo you too are a thug.

WMLute · « **Reply #164 on:** July 20, 2006, 03:12:13 AM »

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Originally posted by -dead-
Try running that example using the actual weapons involved: using a 500lb bomb instead of a sniper rifle, you are deliberately targeting the hostages and anybody else who happens to be in a 60-80m radius as well. It is no longer their unintentional killing, due to the choice of weapon. Deliberately using a bomb can only mean you intend to kill the hostages too, ergo you too are a thug.

war sucks.

If you place yourself, and your family in harms way, you should probably expect them to be harmed.

Using civilians as a shield should not prevent the military from taking you out. The death of the civilans is regretable, but it is not the military's fault.

Civilians USED to be a target not too long ago. I don't even wanna' think how many civilians died in WW2, and make no mistake, they were the targets.

The death of the innocent should be avoided at all costs, as should war period. But if you HAVE to fight, use all your resolve, fight as hard as you can, and don't hold back. Win at all costs.

war really does suck though.