Author Topic: israel in war (Read 6247 times)

Nilsen · « **Reply #195 on:** July 20, 2006, 09:18:42 AM »

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Originally posted by lazs2

What do you feel? better yet..... how would you handle it?

lazs

See my above post.

As to not allowing rocket launchers to be posted in your home:
Im sure plenty of norwegians/ french/dutch whatever didnt want to allow the nazis to take their homes, transports etc either. I guess they chickened out when armed soldier knocked on their door. You may have been braver, but some of us are just human and gets pretty freaked in that situation. I can imagine that some lebanese would also be pretty scared too if a group of men came in their door and wanted to launc rockets from their rooftop.

-dead- · « **Reply #196 on:** July 20, 2006, 10:52:45 AM »

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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Okay, so ethical standards are based upon the firepower involved.

If I kill one innocent by a misdirected munition, I am ok, if I kill what 5..? am I then a thug?

The Russians pumped sleeping gas into a theater and ended up killing a few score. Not intended, but I guess that was thuggary.

Buy my measure, it was a valiant effort gone awry.

Put the straw man down, he's had enough.

I'd base the ethical standards on the intent -- so using a sniper rifle and hitting a hostage with the bullet can certainly be construed as accidental: it is a precision weapon, not designed to kill everything in a 60m radius. Sleeping gas in your second example is not intended to kill everything within its area of effect: so again, unintentional killings, yes. Using Sarin gas on the other hand would be deliberately killing civilians. And so it is with bombs in built-up areas: this is deliberately killing civilians -- or thuggery as Angus puts it.

Krusher · « **Reply #197 on:** July 20, 2006, 10:59:27 AM »

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Originally posted by LLv34 Jarsci
If US citisens would have been under bombing during WW2 I think US peoples thinking would be a little different.....

We had over 11,000 civilian deaths in WWII.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_casualties_by_country link

lukster · « **Reply #198 on:** July 20, 2006, 10:59:44 AM »

Didn't the Israelis drop leaflets advising everyone to get the hell out of the area because they were about to bomb it? That they were willing to tip off those they were trying to kill to avoid killing those they weren't does not sound like thuggery to me.

-dead- · « **Reply #199 on:** July 20, 2006, 11:14:52 AM »

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Originally posted by Angus
If the Israelis wanted to kill as many civilians as possible, they wouldn't be lobbing puny 500 lbr's.....
If you have a doubt who is the thug, try this:
Israelis lob rockets at densely populated areas with little accuracy launching from crowded places.
How would Lebanon respond if Israeli fanatic groups were lobbing some 1200 missilies at Lebanese towns while the army stood idly by?
One has to reflect things a bit to get a view.

"If Hizbollah wanted to kill as many civilians as possible, they wouldn't be lobbing puny rockets..."
Strange how that justification seems to swing both ways and still sound natural - perhaps because it's merely a justification of thuggery.

BTW, I have no doubt who the thugs are: they're the ones using the weapons. It's a handy rule of thumb, which I picked up from The Observer's Book of Thugs.

As to how Lebanon would respond to Israeli fanatics lobbing missiles at densely populated areas: no need to speculate, watch the news, it's on right now. Any armed response? Only from thugs. Any invasion of Israel? Not even from the thugs.

Krusher · « **Reply #200 on:** July 20, 2006, 11:16:02 AM »

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Originally posted by Nilsen
It is ok to destroy infrastructure that enables terrorist movements and operations even if it also hurts innocent civilian population?

Didn't the the Brits and a group of Norweigians commandos blow up some hydro plant in WWII to stop heavy water productuion?

Rino · « **Reply #201 on:** July 20, 2006, 11:16:28 AM »

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Originally posted by Elfie
That's not entirely accurate. The IDF could very well be the absolute best at pulling destroyed/damaged tanks off the battlefield, repairing them and sending them back into combat with new crews. Heck, the Israelis pull damaged/destroyed Arab tanks off the battlefield, repair them, regun them and send them back into battle against their former owners.

Due to political pressures I dont believe the US actually sent any military equiptment to Israel while the Yom Kippur war was going on. The Yom Kippur War only lasted about 30 days, most of the Israeli tank losses were in the initial stages of the war. By the end of the war the majority of those tanks had been repaired and sent back into combat.

The Yom Kippur war saw the first use of large quantities of anti-tank missles by infantry. This took the Israeli tank units by surprise, they apparently didnt realize just how many Sagger missles (I think that was the missle) the Egyptians had.

Maybe not on the ground front, but I remember reading how the US
sent ECM pods to help counter the SA-6 threat. Just saw a program where
the IDF didn't much like the tactics the USAF advised to use em though.

Rino · « **Reply #202 on:** July 20, 2006, 11:17:21 AM »

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Originally posted by Krusher
Didn't the the Brits and a group of Norweigians commandos blow up some hydro plant in WWII to stop heavy water productuion?

I think they sank a ferry loaded with heavy water too.

lukster · « **Reply #203 on:** July 20, 2006, 11:19:32 AM »

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Originally posted by -dead-
"If Hizbollah wanted to kill as many civilians as possible, they wouldn't be lobbing puny rockets..."
Strange how that justification seems to swing both ways and still sound natural - perhaps because it's merely a justification of thuggery.

BTW, I have no doubt who the thugs are: they're the ones using the weapons. It's a handy rule of thumb, which I picked up from The Observer's Book of Thugs.

As to how Lebanon would respond to Israeli fanatics lobbing missiles at densely populated areas: no need to speculate, watch the news, it's on right now. Any armed response? Only from thugs. Any invasion of Israel? Not even from the thugs.

Please provide an example of when Hezbollah exercised restraint to avoid civilian casualties.

Eagler · « **Reply #204 on:** July 20, 2006, 12:11:59 PM »

They way I see it, if your "cause" requires you to wear a ski mask as part of your uniform, you should re-evaluate it

I hope Israel exterminates every single one of the masked "freedom fighter" they can before the hand wringing becomes some loud they are forced to stop

Nilsen · « **Reply #205 on:** July 20, 2006, 12:22:50 PM »

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Originally posted by Krusher
Didn't the the Brits and a group of Norweigians commandos blow up some hydro plant in WWII to stop heavy water productuion?

Some norwegians did... after silently notifying the workers and doing it at night. They did however kill a few civilians when they sank a small ferry containing the last drops of the heavy water. That operation may have prevented the germans from making the first nukular mushroom.

That was a very different time tho, when allies and axis carpet bombed whole cities to get at factories and stuff.

Maverick · « **Reply #206 on:** July 20, 2006, 12:56:18 PM »

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Originally posted by -dead-
Put the straw man down, he's had enough.

I'd base the ethical standards on the intent -- so using a sniper rifle and hitting a hostage with the bullet can certainly be construed as accidental: it is a precision weapon, not designed to kill everything in a 60m radius. Sleeping gas in your second example is not intended to kill everything within its area of effect: so again, unintentional killings, yes. Using Sarin gas on the other hand would be deliberately killing civilians. And so it is with bombs in built-up areas: this is deliberately killing civilians -- or thuggery as Angus puts it.

OK now!! So it boils down to intent.

Lets look at this thing called intent. You wish to condem the Isrealis because they responded to an attack on their soil from a neighboring country. The attack is launched by the use of unguided rockets on a civilain city with no definable military targets on it. The attack is launched by folks who place their launcher in a city neighborhood populated by their own people. Once they place the launcher there and especially after they launch the weapon, that area becomes a legitimate military target.

Now who has the intent here. The people who fire back? Or it it possibly the ones who place the weapon in a civilian neighborhood and launch the unguided weapon into a city with no military value? Nah it couldn't POSSIBLY be the ones launching the rockets. They are peace loving muslims who just simply HAVE to use their own people as human shields as there can't possibly be any non urban area to launch unguided rockets from anywhere else in that rural desert country. Right got it....

Thrawn · « **Reply #207 on:** July 20, 2006, 01:24:29 PM »

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Originally posted by Maverick
OK now!! So it boils down to intent.

Lets look at this thing called intent. You wish to condem the Isrealis because they responded to an attack on their soil from a neighboring country. The attack is launched by the use of unguided rockets on a civilain city with no definable military targets on it. The attack is launched by folks who place their launcher in a city neighborhood populated by their own people. Once they place the launcher there and especially after they launch the weapon, that area becomes a legitimate military target.

I can find supporting reports that Hezbollah fired rockets on the civil populous of Shlomi (and yes that makes them evil ********s) but I can't find anything that supports that they fired them from amongst civilians.

Elfie · « **Reply #208 on:** July 20, 2006, 01:37:41 PM »

Nilsen maybe this will put a bit of perspective on things. During both Gulf Wars the *good* guys bombed powerplants and infrastructure in Iraq. Doing so made it harder for the Iraqis to communicate with each other and defend themselves. Yes, it did make things harder on the civilian population. Otoh, it probably saved countless lives on both sides by making the fighting end sooner.

Dead, the Israelis have dropped leaflets, warning the civilians to leave, no way the Israelis are thugs. That dubious honor belongs to the people lobbing 122mm rockets into cities that have no military targets.

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1. why Jews had to go there in the first place anyway..?

Maybe because Israel is the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people?

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2. well , now that theyre there they should even try to live with their neighbours. If they had acted a little more peacefully and not responded to every threat and crosseyed look with bombs and bullets, they would prolly have peace there..or not.

Riiiigght......

Where is the outrage I sense when Israel is attacked over and over and over by suicide bombers blowing up cafes, buses, nightclubs etc. When Israeli cities are attacked by rockets and artillery.....where is your outrage then?

Seems like you could care less about Israeli citizens dying, but when the poor Arabs die then you become outraged.

There will be NO peace in the Middle East until the Arabs give up the ideology that Israel MUST be ANNIHILATED. Groups like Hamas and Hezbollah will NOT be satisfied until Israel has been pushed into the sea.

Maverick · « **Reply #209 on:** July 20, 2006, 01:44:27 PM »

Thrawn

Use the TV. On the news the other day I saw some launchers being used in between houses on a street in an obvious urban envirinment.

Yep I know you won't want to accept the source since it was the news in the US. Whatever. At this time I kinda really don't want to go there myself and take film of it in action and you wouldn't want to believe me either.

It's a s***y situation there but as long as one side won't be satisfied unless the other nation is erased from the earth it ain't gona go away. Ya can't learn to live together is all you want to do is keep trying to kill the other guy.