Racism.

[Kratzer]

Originally posted by Raubvogel:

If I don't like someone, it's not because of how they look, it's because they're just an amazinhunk.

Well put, amazinhunk.

 

[miko2d]

Originally posted by Dowding:
Most historians who subscribe to the view that Stalin was planning to attack Hitler, put the offensive beginning in 1942 i.e. not 1-2 weeks from Barbarossa.

 Considering that it is hard to completely hide a military buildup for the war intended to occupy the whole Europe, wouldn't it be surprising that russians spread those rumors themselves - with a date safely a year in the future.
 A lot of hard evidence (mass production of gliders which cannot possibly survive winter on the ground, timed release of enormous numbers of pilots from flight schools - wasted as infantry later, etc.) indicate summer of 41 as strategic time. Moving aviation and suppies withing machinegun range of the enemy and troops into tents in the forest is not done a year in advance too. July 6th is more reasonable date to me.

 Stalin accounts for 43,000,000 of these deaths.
 How do you know what would have Trotsky's toll been? From reading his works I gather that he was more radical and less pragmatic.
 Stalin's collective farms are nothing compared to Trotsky's "work armies" and sacrificing russia for "permanent revolution".
 I dislike them both but I think Stalin was a better choice.

 miko

[ 11-02-2001: Message edited by: miko2d ]

[mrfish]

Originally posted by Udie:

 Actually it was to remind people that you're a racist Jew hater, but please feel free to read into it what ever you want.

my views on every race, religion, ethnic and socio-economic group will always be based on the sum of my experiences with them - not what society tells me i should think or what's nice to think.

you can put whatever label you want on that. whatever's easiest for you to understand.

[Dowding]

It's simple Miko2d. Assuming the figures are correct (and they are statistics, so they must be right  ), Stalin killed 43,000,000 with his purges, ethnic relocation, famine and work camps. The Soviet union killed 61,000,000. Take 43 from 61 and you get 18,000,000 down to the people in charge before Stalin came to power.

Trotsky fell out of favour with Stalin (he had an icepick buried in his head), remember, and it was Stalin pulling all the strings from 1922 when he was elected General Secretary.

The early years were brutal, the Stalinist years were unimaginable.

[miko2d]

Dowding: There isn't an intelligence test in the world that has been accepted by the scientific community as a benchmark. Not even IQ tests. Mainly because of the poorly understood science of psychology (if it can be considered a science).
 Unless you care to stroll to the nearest bookstore and pick up a few 600+ page volumes. And they all have hundreds of references - to studies, tests, research, ets.
 Psychometry and differential psychology are well over 100 years old and while they had spectacular flops in the beginning (just like physicists and astronomers), they are real sciences now.
 The performance tests involving mental activities highly correlate with objective measurements obtained with EEG, MRI and PET scans.
 And they did extensive studies on siblings to eliminate factors external to families (Socio-economic status, etc). Those are the guys who invented statistical analysis in the first place.
 Need book references?

   

Originally posted by Dowding:
The crux of the matter. How would you use your indisputable, scientifically proven information when recruiting for a vacancy at work, for instance?

 If a guy comes for an interview in and scores well on a test, where does statistics even come into play? You know very well that stastistics cannot be used to predict outcomes of individual cases.
 But if I were given $1 billion and asked to set up research facility for processor design - by taking very young children, educating them in a company school and then employing them - I would set up my shop in Israel or Korea, not Somali - even though expences in Somali would have been much smaller.
 That would have been the most efficient use of company money.
 16% of askenasi jews and ~5% of asians have IQ of 130 or higher vs 2.3% of anglo-saxons or 0.13% of Somaleans (still respectable 9700 somaleans of "very bright" level).

BTW, if you deny the scientific claim to this effect, then what you left is mrfish' claim that jews are so successfull because they sold their soul to the devil or something...
 And other peoples' claims that blacks are lazy and prone to violence...

 So denying inherent genetic differences between races in mental abilities is more racist point of view, or at least can be used by racists more effectively.

 miko

[ 11-02-2001: Message edited by: miko2d ]

[mrfish]

Originally posted by miko2d:
BTW, if you deny the scientific claim to this effect, then what you left is mrfish' claim that jews are so successfull because they sold their soul to the devil or something...
 [/QB]

that's not my view. my opinion on why the jews are disporportionately successful has to do with an emphasis on the importance of education and a heavy involvement by jewish parents. most of the jews i have met have a superior intellect when compared to the street level gentile.

in business it is partially due to the fact that the jews i have worked with put more time into the job. all-nighters are extremely common. they typically know the job better and make it more of a priority on average than others. at least in the industries i have experience in.

it's the clannish exclusionary moves, nepotism and no-holds barred and often destructive business deals that have no mercy and no consideration of people's lives, coupled with the jewish tenent that gentiles are inferior that earned my dislike. there's no metaphysical component, i don't even have a religion!

being smart or successful is only part of the equation - you have to judge people by how they live and regard others also.

[Kratzer]

That makes very little sense.  I work for a company that develops assessments/tests, and there are many factors that will affect performance on these assessments that have nothing to do with intelligence.  You can't give a westernized IQ test to someone from Somalia and expect them to perform well on it.  By the same mark, doing the same in reverse will yeild the same result.  Lack of education doesn't reflect lack of intelligence, and possesion of intelligence doesn't reflect possession of common sense.  There are too many factors that make up human behaviour and aptitudes to simply pick one as the measure of the man, especially when your definition is simply a measure of specific cultural aptitude.

Genetically, we are all the same aside from VERY minor details.  Saying that the color of someone's skin places them in a group that can be categorized as having lesser intelligence/aptitude is as ridiculous as saying that the color of someone's hair allows them to be categorized the same way.

What I think it comes down to is the analogy about pretty girls:

Pretty girls surround themselves with ugly friends to make themselves stand out.

The idea is to create something unsavory (or different) to juxtapose yourself against, thereby making yourself look good.

In the case of race, a difference is noticed, and because of this difference is physical, it is easy for people to identify the group, label them as 'unsavory', and appoint themselves 'better'.  People crave power, and belonging, and race easily allows people to separate into 'us' and 'them'.  They then can effortlessly make the jump to the thought that the group they belong to must be better, because they have assured themselves that they themselves are intelligent, and right, so if they are a part of a group like themselves, it must be a right and intelligent group.

It is a trap for people who have difficulty feeling worthwhile on their own merits... I see among my co-workers a desire to 'win' (Who is making more money? Who will be promoted?) as if life is a contest.  Making the realization that life is in fact NOT a contest, and you don't have to 'beat' anyone to 'win' will result in having a less stressful, happier life without the need to put someone else down to hold yourself up.

I apologize for being over-long... I'm bored as hell at work today.

[StSanta]

Thanks for all the responses everyone.

I should explain: the eample with the Somalis  was my attempt at showing that a generalization that is obviously way to sweeping and downright wrong, regarding a group coming from a specific geographica area isn't a racist one - it can be a bigotted one however. But racism is a subset of bigotry, not the other way around.

Miko, you said something about I should be sure that I get my facts straight - I am not complete sure I understand what you're referring to. The Somali comment wasn't meant as a factual one. And, I'd very much like references to the works you've suggested would be interested to peruse.

I wrote the first post in a state of slight irritation -  I definitely felt that it was wrong to call me a racist when I commented o behavior of a person - not behaviour of a race. Not even behaviour of a group from a specific region of the world. I was tired of hearing the word "racist" being overused - in a cry wolf fashion. It dilutes the importance of the word, something I find is a bit dangerous.

Interesting discussion this, and civil too. Thanks.

[easymo]

Aww! Man.  I saw the title "racism" I thought there was a new NASCAR sim out.

[Naso]

ROTFLMAO Easymo!!!  

BTW, miko, I want to understand your position:

Q: You are saying that some ethnic group is genetically less intelligent of some other?

If the answer is yes, what weight you put on social structure, educational system, in a word, the environment they use to live?

[Tumor]

 ....anybody want a donut?

Tumor

[-tronski-]

and here I thought racism was when 2 cars started revving at a red light...

 Tronsky

[Creamo]

I had a different opinion before, but I see Mr. Fish is a old "oven runner" NAZI!

His statements lack any purpose, point, or intellect at all. Plus he goes with the crowd, never having anything to say individually. Wait…he’s a COMMUNIST too!

Im with Undies here, burn Mr. Fish! It’s a new racists movement I enjoy.

(Although his Gook (that’s “G”word for the politically sappy) wife IS hot, and looks fun to boot, that won’t sway my opinion)

Oh, and he likes toejam music.

Burn Baby Burn! (add 70’s disco music here)

TARDS

[myelo]

mrfish wrote

 

almost every border collie i have ever met since i was a kid has tried to bite me (true story)

They're herding dogs. Some of the sheep smell is probably rubbing off on you.

myelo

[ 11-03-2001: Message edited by: myelo ]

[mrfish]

she's not a gook creamo, she's a chink. there's a difference.