al sharpton...

[Yoj]

Greese and Highflyer - I know what you're saying.  However, the world really is more complex than that.  

And Greese, if your brother has been fortunate enough to not have been disadvantaged, that's great.  In fact, I don't think I have either, at least not in any serious way.  However, to extrapolate from his (or my) experience and say "therefore it doesn't happen" is faulty logic.  

- Yoj

PS - I'm tired of this thread.  Like every other one on these boards, nobody ever convinces anyone, and it always seems to end up with people preaching pre-packaged piles of propaganda (well, "propaganda" is the wrong word - but it starts with "p").  I just figured a thread about minorities in America ought to have SOMETHING posted by someone who is a minority in America.  Otherwise the whole thing would have probably been "you got that right", "damn straight", and "I couldn't have said it better".

[mrfish]

Originally posted by Yoj:


Finally "you are strong or you aren't" is a tautology -

 - no, 'you are strong or you aren't' refers specifically to physical fitness since the example i used (had you read it...), involved an erroneous impression of someone's fitness and how they could be perceived as fit is the masses were told that enough - the 'strength' isn't a social metaphor in my example though the example itself is. how could you have missed the context? i'll use something a little easier next time.

   

Originally posted by Yoj:

the question is, do we advocate some kind of social Darwinism, or do we as a society feel an urge to help those who aren't.  I assume you prefer a "survival of the fittest".  I don't.
- Yoj

yes - that is the question and yes since it is the model that got us to our dominant position as humans and since it is the model found successfully in nature i do advocate it.

your kind wants to limit everyone to the skills of the lowest common denominator - your kind wants to hold the masses back for the sake of the few because it isn't fair that they get left behind. go tell that to the herd of wildebeast - that they should turn back for 'jimmy' because he is dawdling. i think they are more interested in survival. you are probably ruled by your emotions.

[ 09-10-2001: Message edited by: mrfish ]

[mrfish]

Originally posted by Yoj:

Herr is simply "Mister", and I used it in exactly that sense

- roadkill.

[funkedup]

Guys take a deep breath pls.

[Yoj]

Originally posted by mrfish:


- roadkill.

(Sigh!)  You know, sometimes the only thing between the lines is blank paper.  But if you want to believe I called you something, knock yourself out

- Yoj

[Eagler]

Originally posted by Yoj:


Again reflective of so many pervasive attitudes.  Minorities with "natural abilities over whites" is another of the racial myths that float around, like the idea of "natural rhythm".  If minorities succeed in major sports its due to motivation, not some "natural ability"  White athletes who dedicate themselves to sports excell just as well.  There are more minorities represented because poor minority members see fewer paths to big time financial success.  

- Yoj

psst
ask Jimmy the Greek...
he was fired for speaking the truth though it was not politically correct.

The average white kid is much less active than the average black kid - > PS2 basketball vs basketball at the park but physically there are major differences btwn the average example of the races. For one example, just look at body development, much harder for the white guy to cut his body & gain muscle mass "naturally" than the black weight lifter. Wrestling in jr high & high school, I found the black wrestlers stronger on average than the white ones but did not have the endurance...judo the same.

back to the topic, if you support the al's and jj's, you are not supporting the advancement of the african american race in the states. period.

[mietla]

Originally posted by funkedup:
Guys take a deep breath pls.

Why, they are doing just fine.

[mietla]

Originally posted by Yoj:

the question is, do we advocate some kind of social Darwinism, or do we as a society feel an urge to help those who aren't.

 

Originally posted by mrfish:


yes - that is the question ..

I think the question is a bit different. I would re-phrase it as:

"do we advocate some kind of social Darwinism, or do we allow the use of the full power of the government to enforce certain views/behaviors in order to help those who aren't."

[ 09-10-2001: Message edited by: mietla ]

[Eagler]

for the record...

Rice Says U.S. Blacks Should Not Be Paid for Slavery
 http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/nm/20010909/ts/race_usa_rice_dc_1.html

"WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. national security adviser Condoleezza Rice, one of the most influential blacks in the Bush administration, said Sunday she did not think African-Americans should be compensated for the past wrongs of slavery.

Rice said the United Nations conference on racism, which ended in Durban, South Africa, Saturday without U.S. participation, looked too much at the past by focusing on the issue of reparations for slavery and on finding ways to condemn Israel.

Slavery ended in the United States 138 years ago with the stroke of Abraham Lincoln's pen and civil rights leaders such as Jesse Jackson have demanded that blacks be compensated for the injustices of slavery.

Pressed on whether she agreed with Jackson, Rice told NBC's ''Meet the Press'' television program it was more important to focus on current problems than dwell on the past.

``I would hope that we would spend our time thinking about how to deal with today. I would hope we would spend our time thinking about how to educate black children, particularly black children who are caught in poverty.

``I would hope that we would spend our time, as the president has said, turning back the soft bigotry of low expectations against our children,'' she said."

Amen

[mrfish]

Originally posted by Yoj:


(Sigh!)  You know, sometimes the only thing between the lines is blank paper.  But if you want to believe I called you something, knock yourself out

- Yoj

if you take a shot at me from the grassy knoll have the sack to own it.

[mrfish]

Originally posted by mietla:


I think the question is a bit different. I would re-phrase it as:

"do we advocate some kind of social Darwinism, or do we allow the use of the full power of the government to enforce certain views/behaviors in order to help those who aren't."

[ 09-10-2001: Message edited by: mietla ]

fair enough. but i think the answer lies in that 'centrist zone of reality' that is so often overlooked:

let's have programs to help people but if they don't exploit them and benefit from the help then let evolution take it's course.

an aside----------------
this has nothing to do with race but is a good example the currently en vogue publicly supported policy on all problems and draws paralells to our racial policies:

in san francisco there are bums on my block that have lived on the street for decades. they aren't 'temporarily residentially challenged', they are worthless bums plain and simple.

they sit on their ass(literally - no joke) all day with a cup out in front of them and only stand when the cup is full enough to by hooch or dope.

they have food vouchers, homeless shelters, their own homeless advocate, an address and ph# in case they want to apply for a job, rehab, resume and skill building classes, work programs, basic education and free ged courses, weekly showers, free clothes...etc.

even with all of this all they give back is filth and decay. they break their bottles on the ground when they are done, they pull free newspapers out of the racks and spread them on the ground as a nest never cleaning up, they defecate, piss, puke and spit all over the sidewalk, the leave needles, urine soaked underwear and clothes and paraphenalia lying around on the ground, they steal everything that isn't nailed down , they sleep and live in their own excremate spreading disease, they aggressively panhandle especially women and anyone who looks like an easy score, and they inundate the emergency rooms with their constant overdoses and liver problems (all of which i pay for in taxes and increased medical bills since they don't) and to top it all off they get several hundred $$$$ per month in general assistance which you guessed it also comes from our taxes.

most of the policy makers are safe in the suburbs and don't have to chase these living toilets off of their stoop to get out of the door in the morning. neither do most of the noisy college freshmen defending their rights from the comfort of mommy's house.

there's yet another example of the vocal minority ensuring we all have to deal with this discord for the sake of the "rights" of a few.

our racial policy is similar: let's keep throwing money and over-regulation at the problem instead of insisting on personal responsibility. sometimes it's just YOUR problem, not society's. catch up or move over. many blacks get it and have done just that despite the odds. conversely, many ignorant whites and others also don't get the picture. we shouldn't differentiate between them, for those that get it: welcome aboard, and for those that don't: move over....

[Yoj]

Originally posted by mrfish:



if you take a shot at me from the grassy knoll have the sack to own it.

IF were to take a shot at you, it would be out on the street in daylight.  

You're going to believe what you want despite what I say.  But nobody has ever seen me make an insulting comment about any individual on any board anywhere.  I wonder how many others here saw what you think you did.

- Yoj

[Yoj]

Originally posted by Eagler:


psst
ask Jimmy the Greek...
he was fired for speaking the truth though it was not politically correct.

The average white kid is much less active than the average black kid - > PS2 basketball vs basketball at the park but physically there are major differences btwn the average example of the races. For one example, just look at body development, much harder for the white guy to cut his body & gain muscle mass "naturally" than the black weight lifter. Wrestling in jr high & high school, I found the black wrestlers stronger on average than the white ones but did not have the endurance...judo the same.

back to the topic, if you support the al's and jj's, you are not supporting the advancement of the african american race in the states. period.

In a nutshell, Jimmy the Greek did not "speak the truth", not that I can see.  The observations you make about the athleticism of the average black and white kids is no doubt true, and has nothing to do with race.  And I long ago said I thought al and jj were opportunists riding hot button issues.  

And (to your other post) I long ago said I thought reparations were a bad idea (at least give the native Americans all their land back first - in fact, give Europe back to the Romans.  They stole it fair and square).

[highflyer]

This sounds kinda stupid, but hey what the heck.

For the black americans that have greviance with white americans and a remembrance of pasts evil history, and for those who wish that we have never taken those from thier rightfull home land, or demand payback in the form of money;

I say,... how about we send you back to the African homeland of which you or other protesting africans seek.

That could clear the issue up yes?

However if a black american, protests against this and continues to demand that money is the monetary form of repayment, then I say you care nothing for the shed blood of your fellow enslaved man, but rather for yourself and the fullfillment of your greedy ways.  

I mean,.. to be fair, if payback is in order, let us give what they ask. The next ship to africa is in a few hours... who's ready..??

[Yoj]

Yeesh!  This thread is getting downright distasteful.  You gents can have it.

- Yoj