IDF says "building collapsed 8 hours after the attack"

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by Nashwan
The source for that article is http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Diplomacy/8997.htm

It's full of glaring errors.

For example:


In which case the BBC must have been very slow off the mark, as they showed ambulances driving past them leaving the site as the BBC was still heading towards it.



The BBC's Fergal Keene was right by the building reporting:


The BBC news report is at:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5232434.stm#
(not sure if link will work, you need to look for the story "Dozens killed in Lebanon air raid"



Getting pulled out of a collapsed building in a hot dusty enviroment tends to do that to you. Lots of dust about.

The few shots of bodies in the BBC report (the BBC tends not to linger on the bodies) certainly don't show anything inconsistent with recent deaths.

Of course, people will still choose to believe a blantant progaganda piece (although maybe not for too long, the IDF is already changing their story on Qana, and more details are likely to emerge in the next few days and weeks)

One man's blatent propoganda is anothers suspician that requires independent investigation.  

Those can condemen israel all they want for propaganda and stooping to terrorists levels but IMHO if they didn't they'd lose this conflict without any type of military defeat.  

But lets examine this for a moment:

In which case the BBC must have been very slow off the mark, as they showed ambulances driving past them leaving the site as the BBC was still heading towards it.

So the team wasn't there when they FIRST started.....OK

The BBC's Fergal Keene was right by the building reporting:

But not a shot of anyone inside the building?
(note: I do beleive that is what the author was trying to convey as the amount of grandstanding done outside the building one would assume they'd want to carnage shown inside as well)

Getting pulled out of a collapsed building in a hot dusty enviroment tends to do that to you. Lots of dust about.

There's alot of other shots that show different.  From the photos I've seen only one child was actually covered in dust/concrete.  Other photos of "victims" had heavy rigor mortis set in.  Of course they are inappropriate for this forum so I will post no link to them.

[Gunslinger]

Yet more speculation:

Lebanese website blames Hizbullah for Qana deaths

Anti-Syrian elements in Lebanon openly point finger at Hizbullah as guilty of killing of dozens of civilians in order to curtail plans for disarming group. 'Hizbullah has placed rocket launcher on building's roof and brought invalid children inside in bid to provoke Israeli response,' they write
Roee Nahmias

Is Hizbullah behind the tragic incident in the village of Qana that claimed the lives of some 60 people? While the Israeli army continues to investigate the circumstances leading to the building's collapse, some in Lebanon do not hesitate to point the finger at the *****e organization and claim it is to blame for the death of dozens.

The Lebanese website LIBANOSCOPIE , associated with Christian elements in the country and which openly supports the anti-Syrian movement called the "March 14 Forces," reported that Hizbullah has masterminded a plan that would result in the killing of innocents in the Qana village, in a bid to foil Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora's "Seven Points Plan", which calls for deployment of the Lebanese army in southern Lebanon and the disarming of Hizbullah.

'Disabled children placed inside building'

"We have it from a credible source that Hizbullah, alarmed by Siniora's plan, has concocted an incident that would help thwart the negotiations. Knowing full well that Israel will not hesitate to bombard civilian targets, Hizbullah gunmen placed a rocket launcher on the roof in Qana and brought disabled children inside, in a bid to provoke a response by the Israeli Air Force. In this way, they were planning to take advantage of the death of innocents and curtail the negotiation initiative," the site stated.

 
The site's editors also claimed that not only did Hizbullah stage the event, but that it also chose Qana for a specific reason: "They used Qana because the village had already turned into a symbol for massacring innocent civilians, and so they set up 'Qana 2'." Notably, the incident has indeed been dubbed "The second Qana massacre" by the Arab media.
 
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3284514,00.html#n

[Trikky]

Lets hope the Israeli Air Force have the footage of the rocket launcher on the roof.

[Hawco]

Originally posted by Trikky
Lets hope the Israeli Air Force have the footage of the rocket launcher on the roof.

It'll be found right next to the smuggled from Iraq (by a hizbollah driver) Mobile WMD lab which was just about to launch a chemical rain storm down till the timely intervention by the IDF

[Elfie]

Originally posted by Trikky
Lets hope the Israeli Air Force have the footage of the rocket launcher on the roof.

They dont necessarily need that, but I suspect they do. How else would they know which targets to hit? If this whole thing was staged by Hezbollah all they need to show is that it was staged.

Of course IF it was staged, no amount of evidence would convince Muslims or some folks on this board.

[Maniac]

The IDF believes that Hizbullah explosives in the building were behind the explosion that caused the collapse.

And finally the WMD from Iraq was found.

[Elfie]

Originally posted by Maniac
And finally the WMD from Iraq was found.

How so? If Iraq's WMD had been used to bring down that building....it would have been a nuclear device, since chemical and biological weapons in and of themselves dont explode. If they had used chemical weapons, the rescuers would have gotten contaminated and died. Same with biological weapons only the deaths take longer. So that leaves us with a nuclear device.......if it had been a nuclear device the entire town would be gone including the bodies in that building. If that were the case there would be no discussion of this matter since there would have been no bodies left as evidence of civilian deaths.

[bozon]

Originally posted by Trikky
Lets hope the Israeli Air Force have the footage of the rocket launcher on the roof.

From what I know the building that was hit (and was targeted) was the one next to this building (there will be no launcher on the roof, I'm pretty sure). A pretty big bomb was used and the civilians building likely collapsed due to the side blast.

I know positively about several cases of staged casualties in the past, but I don't believe this is the case here. This is just a hunch as I don't have real info to form a real opinion. Sounds too much like a cheap consppiracy theory.

Hizballa however waited for this incident for over two weeks and made the most propaganda out of it. Rescuers made a show out of it for the press and you can see the same person carrying the same dead child posing for several photographers in different locations.

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by bozon
From what I know the building that was hit (and was targeted) was the one next to this building (there will be no launcher on the roof, I'm pretty sure). A pretty big bomb was used and the civilians building likely collapsed due to the side blast.

I know positively about several cases of staged casualties in the past, but I don't believe this is the case here. This is just a hunch as I don't have real info to form a real opinion. Sounds too much like a cheap consppiracy theory.

Hizballa however waited for this incident for over two weeks and made the most propaganda out of it. Rescuers made a show out of it for the press and you can see the same person carrying the same dead child posing for several photographers in different locations.

I don't want to post the link here but do a google search on: confederate yankee, qana

The guy posts some interesting questions that there's no easy way to write off.

[Elfie]

I googled for that. It seems to me that this event was most likely staged. Rigormortis doesnt even begin to set in until several hours after death and some of those corpses had full blown rigormortis which doesnt happen for 12 - 24 hours after death.


An interesting point brought up by Confederate Yankee......

If the media and rescue workers had no difficulties getting to Qana from Tyre, why couldnt civilians leave?

All pictures of the *rescue workers* show people in clean clothes. How do your clothes not get dirty and bloody from rescue attempts in that type of environment.

It isnt proven that this event was staged yet, but preliminary evidence is suggesting that so far.

[Maniac]

Has anyone been able to explain the Pentagon 9/11 crash pictures yet? or the hollywood produced moon landing pictures?

[Shuckins]

Maniac,

Yeah they have...All those shots were genuine.

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by Elfie
I googled for that. It seems to me that this event was most likely staged. Rigormortis doesnt even begin to set in until several hours after death and some of those corpses had full blown rigormortis which doesnt happen for 12 - 24 hours after death.


An interesting point brought up by Confederate Yankee......

If the media and rescue workers had no difficulties getting to Qana from Tyre, why couldnt civilians leave?

All pictures of the *rescue workers* show people in clean clothes. How do your clothes not get dirty and bloody from rescue attempts in that type of environment.

It isnt proven that this event was staged yet, but preliminary evidence is suggesting that so far.

you'd think that somone in the news media could take a little bit of time to notice these things but they don't.  

That one pic that shows 5 or 6 bodies side by side almost all of them are in full rigor mortis.  not a single body shown in any of the pics had any significant blood on them and half of them, AND the resuce workers where clean of dust and debris.  

These are valid questions to be asking but the world media doesn't ask them.

[Nashwan]

Rigormortis doesnt even begin to set in until several hours after death and some of those corpses had full blown rigormortis which doesnt happen for 12 - 24 hours after death.

AFAIK it happens faster in warmer temperatures.

However, what none of the conspiracy blogs seem to have mentioned is that the building didn't collapse at 8am.

The IDF bombed the building at about 1 am, according to both the IDF and the eyewitnesses.

The IDF said in a briefing the next day that:

"I can't say whether the house collapsed at 12 A.M. or at 8 A.M.," said Eshel. "According to foreign press reports, and this is one of the reports we are relying on, the house collapsed at 8 A.M. We do not have testimony regarding the time of the collapse. If the house collapsed at 12 A.M., it is difficult for me to believe that they waited eight hours to evacuate it."

In fact, the Lebanese Red Cross first received a call for assistance at 7am, but eyewitnesses in the village said the building collapsed about 1am, about 10 minutes after the first strike (and there may not have been a second, what they report as a second explosion may have been the building collapsing)

There's no actual evidence the building collapsed at 7am, and a delay of 6 hours  in getting the attention of the Red Cross doesn't seem that remarkable considering the number of buildings that have colllapsed in Lebanon in the last few weeks, and the probable state of telephone communications in Qana.

If the media and rescue workers had no difficulties getting to Qana from Tyre, why couldnt civilians leave?

Perhaps they haven't got transport? Perhaps they have nowhere else to go? Perhaps they thought they'd be safer staying put, rather than risk being bombed on the road?

All pictures of the *rescue workers* show people in clean clothes. How do your clothes not get dirty and bloody from rescue attempts in that type of environment.

This seems the most ridiculous claim of all.

Watching the BBC video report, the rescuers don't seem particulary clean or dirty. But the men the BBC actually shows digging in the rubble don't seem any dirtier, and whatever caused the explosion, they are actually pulling rubble aside. So either the rubble is carefully engineered polystyrene, or that's how dirty you get moving rubble.

So, is the claim:

A: that it isn't real rubble

B: that Hezbollah put the bodies in an intact building, then blew it up, then pulled the bodies out for the world's press

C: that Hezbollah put bodies in the rubble of an already collapsed building, then pulled the bodies out for the world's press?

Either B or C will have "rescue workers" looking just as dirty as real rescue workers, so the claim they look too clean is just stupid. A is just too bizarre for words.

[Elfie]

Nashwan I've seen vids and pics of other rescue operations and the rescue workers can get pretty dirty especially digging around in collapsed buildings. In the pics I saw of this incident it struck me as strange that none of the rescue workers was the least bit dirty.

If rigormortis does set in faster in warmer environments it could explain why some of the bodies have rigormortis already. It doesnt explain how some have rigor and some dont.

Of the pics that I have seen, only one victim's body was covered in dust. That too seems strange. If those bodies were in the building when it collapsed it would seem logical that all of them should be covered in dust. And lots of it all over them, in their hair etc.

It's all speculation at this point though.

In fact, the Lebanese Red Cross first received a call for assistance at 7am, but eyewitnesses in the village said the building collapsed about 1am, about 10 minutes after the first strike (and there may not have been a second, what they report as a second explosion may have been the building collapsing)

According to the IDF there were multiple strikes on that town throughout the night. I believe the IDF said they hit the building next to this one at midnight, which would make the eyewitness account of the collapse at *1am, about 10 minutes after the first strike* incorrect.