Author Topic: New arena format Part 2 - Use this thread, don't open duplicates  (Read 44605 times)

Offline Sloehand

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New arena format Part 2 - Use this thread, don't open duplicates
« Reply #675 on: September 20, 2006, 02:25:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Simaril
1) The ENY formula is under HTC's control.

2) HT has said elsewhere that "every game is based on fairness between the sides" or something to that effect.

3) ENY has seemed more restrictive to those who refuse to change sides.



Can you draw any conclusions about what HTC thinks ought to happen? HT doesnt like forcing arbitrarily, but he's willing to put in some pretty stiff incentives to have US balance ourselves. And despite your argument that the arena limits force inequity, the truth is that ANY of the people logged into an arena can cahnge sides of they choose. We CAN even the sides regardless of the total numbers.[edit: total numbers in the arena]

And if you argue "they've never worked before" I have to ask you -- if we as a community refuse to make things roughly fair on our own, do you think he'll give up , or do you think he'll make tougher rules?


You really may want to think about this.


This is for Edbert, the BK's and everyone else yapping about numbers balance.   I thoroughly understand the need for balance, and your belief that changing sides is the solution.  Unfortunately there are other considereations that make this imposible for many.  

Many people are naturally loyal by nature and are committed to playing for one side only.  This is the way they want to play, and is no better or worse than those who jump back and forth.  Squadrons are provided by AH, so most people join one (the very greater majority), and fly together, sometimes in very large groups.  All of this is normal, natural and PREDICTABLE human behavior, and another perfect acceptable way to play the game.  

Some people play to win the map as opposed to just hunting for furballs and perk points -- both acceptable game play.  AH provides the 'Win the map' strategy and functionality, so no one is doing something they shouldn't if they do everything they can to take bases and win.  To imply anything different is wrong.  The game (i.e. HiTech) provides it, so by default, they encourage and endorse it.  You can't make it go away. It never will, unless HiTEch scraps the game itself and starts over.

Some people play to fly fighters.  Some to bomb in buffs.  Some to tank in GV's.  AH provides all this, so it is again reasonable that people do this, and since they take EVERYONES money, it behooves HiTech to find the best solutions that help and enhance everyones game, not just a few (BK's are you listening).  If HiTech takes your money over time, there is some obligation on their part to let you continue to play the game you thought you were purchasing, or at least announce that major game elements were changing so you could decide to stay or go.  And this does not mean some changes shouldn't occur over time to improve the game, but to fundamentally change the gameplay (I'd say recreating the Arena format qualifies) in mid-stream makes it difficult for many people to still enjoy themselves, especially when ther are a number if ill-considered flaws in the new format.  

On that point, I think it would have served HiTech's stated purpose to simply have added the Early Arena, keeping the original MA.  The numbers right now suggest that would have drawn off 150 or more people from the MA during peak hours.  Later, if their expected influx of new players required it, the could further divide the arenas, and with some experience and additiaonal insight from the first split.  Unfortunately they went for the extreme, cold turkey approach.
 
As for numbers imbalance (which is more prevelant and extreme than before), basically, people are not going to voluntarily switch sides (at least not enough) cause that's not normal behavior.  Only those who feel no loyalty to anything or anyone, and just want to fight their own little fight, will do the side switching.  And that's OK for them.

There will always be some imbalance, sometimes extreme.  The trick is not to increase the problem (as this format does) and find small, less disruptive ways to minimize it.  ENY is one way that has some passably acceptable characteristics, but it needs to be implemented less onerously.

In my experience, HiTech is notable for killing mosquitoes (apologies to Mossie drivers) with sledgehammers, instead of finessing with a flyswatter.
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #676 on: September 20, 2006, 02:36:31 PM »
Like I said... I wasn't really singling you out but you prove my point....  45 hours in fighters... 80 total... that is a lot of time in the game in a month and...  as you say... less than three kills in an hour...

And no... I do not think that spending 20 minutes flying around doing nothing is any fun.   I may only have an hour to play that whole day.   I don't want 95% of that time to be spend doing nothing.

You also fly only the latest and fastest planes and if you kill something.... it is a slower early plane... I can see how you wouldn't want em removed.

That is maybe the problem.. different goals... if "winning the war" is so important to you then I can see how winning at all costs can become so consuming that you would favor overwhelming numbers and other gamey type stuff.

I use your stats as an example... you are saying one thing and I another.... your stats show how you play and mine the way I play.   people listening to us should know what we mean when we say things like "lots of fites" or "good fites"...

They mean completely different things to the two of us.

The cheating of the squad limits caused a lot of the problems we have now...  

The inability of the community to police itself and change sides and side balance instead of whorde caused the problems.

the eny may get people to do the right thing...  carrot.... stick... make em quit... I don't care... I just want good gameplay.

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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Re: Re: HTC Please READ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #677 on: September 20, 2006, 02:37:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by 4510
Or in otherwords....

If you don't agree with me... and voice a different opinion.... then your opinion or request is nothing more than a whine.


No, he's just pointing out that you do have a choice...you can either play or not play.  It's all rather simple really.



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Offline Kev367th

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« Reply #678 on: September 20, 2006, 02:44:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Edbert
Agreed again Kev. So since we both agree that blame for the lack of balance lies at the feet of the players and not HTC. What is with all the complaints about ENY? Not just you of course, I don't mean to single you out for being so reasonable here, but the majority of the complaints in this thread about "not being able to fly any plane I want" are pertaining to an ENY situation right? What else can they (HTC) do short of having a randomizer that logs you into whatever chesspeice is currently outnumbered like so many other online games have. At least this way if ENY is kicking you in the shorts it is because of a choice you made. Your thoughts


My thoughts -

Well, the imbalance is going to continue to be a part of the game, thats a given.
Everything thats been tried to 'fix' it has failed, no reason why anything new should work.

So the aim should be to make it as small as possible.

The current cap on at least LW1 isn't doing this, in fact it's making it worse than the MA ever was. My example from earlier shows this -
LW1 - Rooks outnumbered, arena full

LW2 - Rooks had the numbers, 50 players or so total, of which 30+ were Rooks.

So in this case HT is responsible for making the imbalance even worse than it previously was.
Combine them the sides would have been more even.

What is confusing -
It was deemed neccesary to have a lower limit before ENY kicked in (200 I believe) prior to this. Now suddenly it has been removed TOTALLY, not reduced, but removed.

Dunno, I think if you remove the caps on the arenas it would keep 90%+ happy.
Wouldn't really affect the EW / MW arenas so shouldn't really be any objections.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2006, 02:48:03 PM by Kev367th »
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Offline Simaril

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« Reply #679 on: September 20, 2006, 02:54:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sloehand
This is for Edbert, the BK's and everyone else yapping about numbers balance.   I thoroughly understand the need for balance, and your belief that changing sides is the solution.  Unfortunately there are other considereations that make this imposible for many.  

Many people are naturally loyal by nature and are committed to playing for one side only.  This is the way they want to play, and is no better or worse than those who jump back and forth.  Squadrons are provided by AH, so most people join one (the very greater majority), and fly together, sometimes in very large groups.  All of this is normal, natural and PREDICTABLE human behavior, and another perfect acceptable way to play the game.  

The real question is, how large of a unit should claim our loyalty? In war, its pretty clear that loyalties come down to the small unit -- the squad. Thats what soldiers fight for, their buddies.

There is NOTHING natural about a lifetime affiliation with a chesspiece.


Some people play to win the map as opposed to just hunting for furballs and perk points -- both acceptable game play.  AH provides the 'Win the map' strategy and functionality, so no one is doing something they shouldn't if they do everything they can to take bases and win.  

To use your logic, since HTC allows for country change every 6 hours, we ought to cahgne countries frequently! After all, the country change is just as much part of the system as the base capture!

And I emphasize again, you can capture bases for the other side, and still have the capture fun. It's a game, like pickup football....so act like it!


Some people play to fly fighters.  Some to bomb in buffs.  Some to tank in GV's.  AH provides all this, so it is again reasonable that people do this, and since they take EVERYONES money, it behooves HiTech to find the best solutions that help and enhance everyones game,

OK, here we're getting somewhere. There are thousands of people in the game, and when CT starts there will be hundreds more. That means the old MA game -- which you love -- would change ANYWAY. So, what changes will allow EVERYONE -- not just the war guys, not just the furballers -- to keep having fun?

Nothing has cahnged in the capture mechanics, but hordes are harder to put together with lower numbers. So, the changes DO mean you have to do something different, and that can be uncomfortable. Now you have to be smarter, snaekier, and more skillful than before. That's all it means, you have to change tactics. YOu can do everything you could before.


 If HiTech takes your money over time, there is some obligation on their part to let you continue to play the game you thought you were purchasing, or at least announce that major game elements were changing so you could decide to stay or go.  

Not really. If a TV show you watch suddenly kills off your favorite character, have you been robbed? No, thinking that would be silly, If you dont like the changes, you go somewhere else. If the show is still worth watching, you watch it.

...snip...

On that point, I think it would have served HiTech's stated purpose to simply have added the Early Arena, keeping the original MA.  The numbers right now suggest that would have drawn off 150 or more people from the MA during peak hours.  Later, if their expected influx of new players required it, the could further divide the arenas, and with some experience and additiaonal insight from the first split.  Unfortunately they went for the extreme, cold turkey approach.
 
As for numbers imbalance (which is more prevelant and extreme than before), basically, people are not going to voluntarily switch sides (at least not enough) cause that's not normal behavior.  


I strongly disagree. Why cant a squad (with intense  loyalty to each other) swing back and forth to the lower side? Why cant attitudes change JUST A LITTLE BIT so that winning the war becomes more like winning a pickup football game -- with friends on both sides? 1


Only those who feel no loyalty to anything or anyone, and just want to fight their own little fight, will do the side switching.  And that's OK for them.

This is both judgemental and silly. Silly -- because I dont know of a squad with more layalty to each other than the 80th FS (including Corky/Dan and friends), and they go to the low side often, jsut to keepo things fair. Judgemental -- Kinda like "Some people are in favor of apartheid, and that's OK for them."

There will always be some imbalance, sometimes extreme.  The trick is not to increase the problem (as this format does) and find small, less disruptive ways to minimize it.  ENY is one way that has some passably acceptable characteristics, but it needs to be implemented less onerously.

How will implementing it less onerously help even the sides?

In my experience, HiTech is notable for killing mosquitoes (apologies to Mossie drivers) with sledgehammers, instead of finessing with a flyswatter.
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Offline Edbert

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« Reply #680 on: September 20, 2006, 02:58:53 PM »
Sloe,

I agree that there are many tastes, and different ways to enjoy this game, and that none of them are inherently right versus wrong, although the incessant gangbanging is close to being always "wrong" in my book. I agree with a large portion of what you wrote, and aside from the "yapping" comment, thought it was reasonable and rational and without insult. I have no problem with winning the war types, or buff drivers, or GVers. I roll 99.99% of my sorties in single engine fighters, you fly/drive whatever makes you happy. I just am happy to see steps being taken to encourage fairness in numbers/planetypes is all. The modest enticements did not work, it took years for that it to be realised that it was not working, so stiffer measures were taken. Only time will tell if they are sufficient or not, I expect it might take 3-6 months to know for sure.

I guess the only things you and I have to add or disagree on is the issue of those who choose "loyalty" to their chesspeice over fairness and then complain about ENY since they do in fact have a choice in the matter. If you choose to fly on the side with overwhelming numerical superiority then you should not complain about ENY, simple as that. Whining about a choice you made is just silly.

Offline Simaril

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« Reply #681 on: September 20, 2006, 03:06:10 PM »
Nevermind the blow by blow.

You have a right to pick your plane, and fly for the country you want.

Some guy on Knights has a right to fly against a fair number of enemies, and to have an equal chance to win the "war." and HE doesnt want to change countries.

How can we find a solution that's fair to EVERYONE, not just the guys on your squad/country?


Simple question.
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Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #682 on: September 20, 2006, 03:11:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Panzullo
It appears to me the new change has destroyed our "the customer" ability to fly what type of plane and when we want to fly. Mostly if the "customer" has grown accustom to any type or mode of flying.  



How has the new change destroyed what you can fly or how you fly?  You can still fly the La7 and gang with the hord to your merry hearts content in the Late War arena.



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Offline SlapShot

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« Reply #683 on: September 20, 2006, 03:15:25 PM »
This is for Edbert, the BK's and everyone else yapping about numbers balance. I thoroughly understand the need for balance, and your belief that changing sides is the solution. Unfortunately there are other considereations that make this imposible for many.

It's not impossible.

Many people are naturally loyal by nature and are committed to playing for one side only. This is the way they want to play, and is no better or worse than those who jump back and forth. Squadrons are provided by AH, so most people join one (the very greater majority), and fly together, sometimes in very large groups. All of this is normal, natural and PREDICTABLE human behavior, and another perfect acceptable way to play the game.

Very true ... no argument here ... but in this game there are consequences for this behavior.

Some people play to fly fighters. Some to bomb in buffs. Some to tank in GV's. AH provides all this, so it is again reasonable that people do this, and since they take EVERYONES money, it behooves HiTech to find the best solutions that help and enhance everyones game, not just a few (BK's are you listening). If HiTech takes your money over time, there is some obligation on their part to let you continue to play the game you thought you were purchasing, or at least announce that major game elements were changing so you could decide to stay or go. And this does not mean some changes shouldn't occur over time to improve the game, but to fundamentally change the gameplay (I'd say recreating the Arena format qualifies) in mid-stream makes it difficult for many people to still enjoy themselves, especially when ther are a number if ill-considered flaws in the new format.

I'm tired of this crap ... "BKs are you listening" ... too freakin' bad that we chose to voice our opinions. I don't know if you have ever met HT or Pyro, I have, and they are not easily swayed by any individual or groups of individuals, no matter how loud they yell and stamp their feet. The posts on this BBS may raise red flags for them, but I have yet to see them make any change as a knee-jerk reaction, to our posts.

The BKs only part in all of this was to voice our opinions and/or suggestions ... and we weren't the only ones ... it just so happens that the majority of our squad choose to participate on this BBS so it appears that we are the vocal majority, but don't kid yourself. Read the vast amount of post where those who had knee jerk reactions to the changes have changed their tune drastically, or the post by long forgotten names that are now re-signing back up due to the recent changes.

I happen to own a copy of Microsoft XP ... I NEVER was asked by Bill Gates that if the changes that are coming in Vista are to my liking. It just doesn't work that way and it never will. HTC will do what it is they think is best for their company and employees. If they gave a crap what every one of us thought was best for their business ...  they wouldn't have lasted this long.

When is their a good time for change ? When everyone here or all the subscribers weighed in on the change ... not a good business plan. We don't know our butts from a hole in the ground when it comes to maintaing a game such as this ... and from what I can see ... HTC is the ONLY one in this genre that has longevity and is the best of breed in this genre. To try and tell them what's best is ludicrious at best.

Ill-consider flaws ... such is the life of computer software and architecture.

On that point, I think it would have served HiTech's stated purpose to simply have added the Early Arena, keeping the original MA. The numbers right now suggest that would have drawn off 150 or more people from the MA during peak hours. Later, if their expected influx of new players required it, the could further divide the arenas, and with some experience and additiaonal insight from the first split. Unfortunately they went for the extreme, cold turkey approach.

Well ... here you are voicing your opinion ... just like all the rest of us have done over the past few months ... shall I slam you for putting forth this opinion ?

As for numbers imbalance (which is more prevelant and extreme than before), basically, people are not going to voluntarily switch sides (at least not enough) cause that's not normal behavior. Only those who feel no loyalty to anything or anyone, and just want to fight their own little fight, will do the side switching. And that's OK for them.

That is their choice ... don't balance ... then you don't get the choice rides. Nobody is being forced to switch side ... they are being enticed to switch sides ... simple as that. They are in control of their own destiny.

Don't try to lay an un-loyal tag on those who switch sides ... some of us do it because its the right thing to do ... and in the past it was to find a decent fight or a just a fight period.

There will always be some imbalance, sometimes extreme. The trick is not to increase the problem (as this format does) and find small, less disruptive ways to minimize it. ENY is one way that has some passably acceptable characteristics, but it needs to be implemented less onerously.

So true ... and I believe that HT is looking at this and we will see changes in the near future to deal with it ... but its not going to come any quicker by fools jumping up and down holding their collective breaths ... it will come when HT is ready.

In my experience, HiTech is notable for killing mosquitoes (apologies to Mossie drivers) with sledgehammers, instead of finessing with a flyswatter.

Well ... I guess that his techniques work ... I think that HTC and this game's longevity prove it.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2006, 03:20:44 PM by SlapShot »
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Offline hubsonfire

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« Reply #684 on: September 20, 2006, 03:26:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by 999000
Raider179......Welcome to the biggest drag of the Game..the BK's.... Blue Knights....go to their home page..It reads something like "we don't fly bombers, we don't do base captures, we don't do Gv's" ...and if you find them rude ....they are proud of it.
999000



:lol  numbers, you've made one statement since the change that is factually correct. That statement was your claim to being the village idiot. <> respected halfwit!
« Last Edit: September 20, 2006, 03:29:39 PM by hubsonfire »
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Online The Fugitive

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Re: Re: Re: HTC Please READ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Reply #685 on: September 20, 2006, 03:32:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by 4510
Or in otherwords....

If you don't agree with me... and voice a different opinion.... then your opinion or request is nothing more than a whine.


I don't have a problem with a DIFFERENT opinion at all, and by all means voice one ! The first part of my post was...

LOL!!! When will you guys learn???? "I'm going to take my $15 and go someplace else" Please do !!! jeez all the whining and complaining! I can understand you not likeing the changes, but a simple "I agree with xxxxx" is enough.

I was pointing out in that part of the post that whining and crying about the same thing over and over isn't going to get you any where, just put "I agree with so-and-so" and let it go at that.

As for the rest of the post, as Ack-Ack said, its a simple choice, play or don't.

Offline FALCONWING

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« Reply #686 on: September 20, 2006, 03:52:59 PM »
Well i have stayed off the boards for about 4 days and the same guys are insulting in here..let me address some concepts here....


1)  Hordes are "safety nets"

Large squads are not safety nets...they are groups of guys who like each other and like to hang out...flying with a purpose is not a bad thing..in fact it adds to some folks' gameplay.

2)  Furballing is superior to basetaking

Im sorry but neither are great or realistic...they are both arcade...no ww2 fiter pilot lived if he insisted on slow turnfiting multiple enemy aircraft...and i dont know of any air force base capture mission ever.  so both are artificial non-historical ways to have fun.   i.e. noone wins this argument...even if you type longer or insult better...they are both gamey and there are tricks to both that can be easily taught and used.

3) your just mad because you can't fly the la7

Here is the secret from playing long before there were la7s....THERE IS ALWAYS A BETTER PLANE....and that better plane will always be denigrated for being better and frustrating others....already in EW arena you can see this and the NEW insults...HOicane...Picking 190a5...Porking ju88's...in airwarrior with a similar planes set there were constant insults between "B-n-Zers" and "Turnfiters"...

so what i boils down too for me is this...i play to hang out with my friends (many guys i have flown with for over 4 years)...i have known more about their day to day lives then i have some of my real life friends...hell we have had 3 members die and that was hard as well...

my squad has grown large not by design but by the fact that we laugh and joke and goof around and dont take ourselves too seriously..but mainly because we sincerely like each other...Hitech created this large arena concept..we just grew within it.

But on Sept 13th the game completely changed...i compare it to playing everquest and havign it switched to world of warcraft...my main reason for flying as much as i did has been compromised.  That is why i am angry..i could care less if they did away with base takes or la7s...im upset because they created a barrier to seeing all my friends...i think anyone even in smaller squads knows what i mean...

I have flown less in the last week then i have flown in 9 years...and that was not a purposeful statement on my part..its a sincere lack of interest...what made this game great was the comraderie...this game will never and can never compete with xbox graphics or stand alone RPGs...what it does offer is the opportunity for true friendships.
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Offline Raider179

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« Reply #687 on: September 20, 2006, 03:53:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2


You also fly only the latest and fastest planes and if you kill something.... it is a slower early plane... I can see how you wouldn't want em removed.

I use your stats as an example... you are saying one thing and I another.... your stats show how you play and mine the way I play.   people listening to us should know what we mean when we say things like "lots of fites" or "good fites"...


lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's


This is my last response to you because you are blatantly lying about my stats in order to further your own agenda. And I hope everyone sees right through you.

Tour 79

Top Planes I kill in order Highest to lowest

1) La- 7      20 kills

2)Niki         20 kills

3)Spit XVI  15 kills

4)P-51D     14 Kills

5)B-24J      13 kills

Use my stats for whatever example you want, But stop lying about them.

You claim I flew the Spit XVI my stats show I NEVER DO.

You  claim all I do is shoot down slow early planes, My stats show that is not true at all.

I really don't care what you think of MY stats or MY time in the game. You have proven that you are willing to boldly lie to promote your agenda.

All I want is the POP cap upped on the LW arena. You can keep your little elite EW arena for all I care, Which I don't...

The only reason YOU want the POP caps is to force people to fly in an arena that YOU like, even if THEY don't.  Talk about selfish...

Offline hitech

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« Reply #688 on: September 20, 2006, 03:59:03 PM »
FALCONWING: Ask your self one question.

How many members of your squad can you personaly name with out looking at the squad roster.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2006, 04:09:04 PM by hitech »

Offline FALCONWING

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« Reply #689 on: September 20, 2006, 04:20:00 PM »
kite777 (6 years together)
bushlt
fungi987 (3 years)
hotdogmn (3+ years)
shubie      (3+ years)
thundregg
flaydone
airjer      (since awc)
camador
solar10
mctoast
viper215  (too long)
sullie
banshee  (since my first day in air warrior classic) was ban69
usranger
red420
reverand
pops949
rain000
flyy            (since awc rre4 circa 1995)
tcfkas
gary6
mailbox
talonII
POW        (. 3years)
choperen
badcarma
JollyFe
Goaly
99mecinf
UFO
Beagle
2old2fly
Monti       (since awc as well)
Jpeg
Ink
Locochal
Donzo
Cablemender
Bayonet
Worid1
waldo

okay im sure i left otu a bunch but wanted to do this quickly
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