Muslims dont like the Pope

[MiloMorai]

Stay away from those sheep Angus.

[Neubob]

Originally posted by AWMac
It's time you Americans to raise up and make it a Free Amerircan Nation.
In GOD we Trust, One Nation under GOD, time for prayer in school and sports.  Are you so Blind?

And how is this gonna help? And what if somebody happens to be, say, Jewish or Budhist? Does he get kicked out of your school, or just re-indoctrinated. Where are personal rights? Where's seperation of church and state? Out the in window because a horde of mental midgets is using suicide bombings to prove a point?

Sorry pal, but the 'if you can't beat them, join them' plan won't work. The only way to defeat them is with reason and logic, superior weapons and superior organization, not our own brand of bible-thumping idiocy. Put prayer in schools and they've already won.

[storch]

no angus I'm not an "anything".  so in your experience as a breeder you have been able to take a goat and breed an angus from it?

[bj229r]

I was gonna respond to Vudak's assertion, but Storch summed it up well.  You certainly don't have to believe in Creationism, but evolution, as described by Darwin, is refuted by SCIENCE, not the Bible. (Fossil records to support evolution didn't yet exist in Darwin's day, but he assumed it was just a matter of time---it's now been a century and change, still great unexplained holes)

[tedrbr]

A few points and observations of the above:

----------------
Muslin religion is the new communism... or rather radical, islamic fundamentalism is the new communism.  You live in a mud hut, eat once a week, got an ugly wife to beat...... or a goat...... then these folks come along, maybe get you stonned high, and say strap on this bomb and go kill those infidels over there and you will go to heaven and be rewarded with comfort and perpetual virgins.

Good recruiters will get you high and toss youy into a tent with prostitutes.....(asian prositutes not uncommon in Iraq for example) you come around and get sober again.... they tell you that was heaven.

You look at your mud hut.  Your 2 ounces of rice for dinner.  Your ugly wife.  The goat....

Then you strap on the bomb.  What do you have to lose?

------------------
Organized religion is all bad.  The stories and writings get skewed and changed to meet the needs, wants, and will of those leading any religion.  How much war, pain, suffering, and atrocities have been committed in God's name over history?  Um...nearly all of it?

Three major world religions all worship the same one true God, but kill each other over dissagreements in interpreting the stories, which day the Sabbath should fall on, and which prophets are the best prophets.  And this one true God allows it to happen.  Sounds like Conan's Crom to me.....

Christians are at fault here too.  How many swear by the Bible and believe it should be followed word for word?  Hipocrites since the Bible allows slavery and selling one's children into slavery to pay off a debt, public stoning for what we would consider stupid crimes (planting two crops side by side, working on the Sabbath....).  Most of the "laws" found in the Bible are not followed.  

Then there is the laws concerning idolatry.  Muslims have this too... which is one of the things many of them don't like about Christians.... idolatry is very commonplace among christian houses of worship in violation of their religion's own laws.  

Christianity did not start out in it's earliest times as monotheism.  The very earliest writings and idols (probalby a source of idolatry laws to begin with...) go into the existence of a consort or concubine in addition to God.  The earliest Chirstian "mother" figure.  But...as Christianity was partiarchial in nature, most of the references to the female companion were destroyed, and we end up with a monotherism judeochristian religion.... at least until the time of Christ.

About Muslims not speaking out against the fundamentalists.... as I understand it, it is considered rude to question another Muslim's expression of his faith.... so there is not much of it.  All other religions do not matter, since Islam is supposed to conquor all.  As to islamic nations?  Heck, why would Jordan, Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, or any other islamic nation stop their radicals from fighting the western nations?  They go to cause trouble elsewhere, so they won't be causing trouble at home... Win-win situation for them.  

-------------------
The last time a lasting multigenerational peace came over the middle east, that I can think of, was the Pax Mongolia.  Might be a more recent one, but I can't think of it.  Of course that was largely the peace of the grave... but Temüjin, Subutai, and Tolui did bring a peace....of sorts... to those lands.  THEY knew how to fight and win a war against the Muslims!

That is what it took to defeat them last time.  Any time I hear about"winning the war on terror", I know I'm listening to an uninformed idiot.  Never have I heard anyone declare or define what "winning" that war entails?  We kill terrorists, insurgents, and plenty of others as collateral damage.  Every day.  And their sons and daughters learn to hate us in the madras, play with toy explosive belts, and learn to become future terrorists.  Violent Islamic fundamentalism is a renewable resource.

We do not chase terrorist, taliban, or insurgents across borders into Jordan, Syria, or Pakistan.  We did not chase Al Qaida from Afghanistan to Indonesia, SE Asia, or the Phillapeans where many of them fled..... we went to Iraq instead which had ONE terrorist training camp in the NE of the country to train Iranian seperatists ---- Sunni Saddam messing with Shia Iran.  We turned Afghanistan over to NATO, and allowed it to become a narco-state.

------------------------
The Flood?  The story of the flood shows up in many cultures around the world.  That's more than likely a memory from pre-history as the last ice age ended.  The Black Sea was once fresh water sea below (rising) sea level.... until rising oceans breached Marmara Denizi and a flood swamped the Black Sea and it's early human fishing villages.  A flood that would have lasted months if not years.  Similar floods would have been experienced around the world, --- the Black Sea was one of the most spectacular --- and in sight of Mount Ararat in Turkey --- and that is something that probably remained in our primative human subconscience minds for many many generations, until finally it could be written about.   Lot's of primitive stuff still rattling around in our minds to this day.

---------------------------
True believers in the world being 5 or 6 thousand years old never look into the night sky.  Or believe in carbon dating.  Or science.  Or evolution.  Bacteria isn't in the Bible is it?  Then they must not exist.  Math is probably a tough one too.  None too much imaginition either.....
 
Even the most brief consideration of astronomy, or how long it takes light to reach us from the furthest reaches of the universe.  Or that there are more galaxies in our night time sky than stars in our own galaxy.  
Or that the oldest rocks dated on the planet come from Greenland, and that they have evidence of life going back about 3.85 billion years.

---------------------------
Denial of being the hairless monkey-boy decendents of apes.  Go to a Wal Mart... or a County Fair.... there are a lot of folks somehow walking upright that are none too far from the tree, bub.

Besides... the scientific history of man is FAR more interesting and entertaining and romantic than that story found in Genesis.  

Early man begins to walk upright to see threats in the savanna grass while crossing between the longer distances of disapperaring trees in a Africa facing desertification.  This frees up his hands for tool making... he learns to throw things to kill... again the brain grows to develop the skills of aiming and targeting other objects.  Fire allows him to cook food (more protein for a growing brain), and staring into the flames at night, man pushes back the darkness, imagination follows the firelight.  Weapons and tools become more sophisticated.  Language.  Clothing.  Hunting and gathering progresses toward fishing, domesticated animals, and finally the First Great Revolution: Agriculture.  The length of time and climatic changes going on around him during this time is staggering to consider.  The distances man covers compared to any other animal is vast.  He has moved to inhabit the entire planet.

Takes a properly imaginiative brain fed by the best cuts of beef to really appreciate the scope and scale of it all.


--- tedrbr
Devout Agnostic ("swear to God").  Omnivoire.  Renaissance Man.  
 
Flame away!  

[Dago]

If it comes to an "everyone versus muslims", can we get then to take the French?  

[tedrbr]

Originally posted by Dago
If it comes to an "everyone versus muslims", can we get then to take the French?  

BREAKING NEWS:  THIS JUST IN........

..... the French have surrendered.


Now back to your regular programing......

[Debonair]

Originally posted by tedrbr
...The last time a lasting multigenerational peace came over the middle east, that I can think of, was the Pax Mongolia.  Might be a more recent one, but I can't think of it.  Of course that was largely the peace of the grave... but Temüjin, Subutai, and Tolui did bring a peace....of sorts... to those lands.  THEY knew how to fight and win a war against the Muslims!...

Temüjin Subutai, and Tolui were all dead before anything that far west was taken.
Hulugu & Kitbuqa are the names you're looking for
pwnerer =---->

[storch]

Originally posted by bj229r
I was gonna respond to Vudak's assertion, but Storch summed it up well.  You certainly don't have to believe in Creationism, but evolution, as described by Darwin, is refuted by SCIENCE, not the Bible. (Fossil records to support evolution didn't yet exist in Darwin's day, but he assumed it was just a matter of time---it's now been a century and change, still great unexplained holes)

I would add that the "theory" was almost immediately accepted as the only possible answer.  people who have wanted to provide postive proof thereof have spared no expense and dedicated countless millions of man hours to that end.

"to know that you don't know is best.
to think you know when you do not know is an infirmity"

Lao Tzu

[tedrbr]

Originally posted by bj229r
I was gonna respond to Vudak's assertion, but Storch summed it up well.  You certainly don't have to believe in Creationism, but evolution, as described by Darwin, is refuted by SCIENCE, not the Bible. (Fossil records to support evolution didn't yet exist in Darwin's day, but he assumed it was just a matter of time---it's now been a century and change, still great unexplained holes)

There will always be holes in evolutionary theory.... this planet is dynamic.  It changes over time.  Volcanos, geologic plates, erosion, glaciers, soil deposits, climatic change, the fact that fossilization is, in relation to the number of species over the time considered, a very very rare thing in the first place.  Most of the species that ever existed have yet to be found.

Darwin put forth the general theory at a time where it could be given serious thought....rather than getting him burned at the stake as a witch.  Science does not so much as refute Darwins theory, but refines it, takes it down alternative paths, looks for evidence to support the theory, looks to correct ideas that did not originally have merit.   But, in a broad sense, Darwins theory still holds up well enough against the evidence gathered.

And I will put my "faith" in the geological record, physical evidence, and scientific study rather than a book written by men in a time where religion and politics were the same thing, the world was flat, the Earth was the center of the universe, stars were pinholes in the curtain of night, and a big day included a public stoning at the city gates.

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by bj229r
I was gonna respond to Vudak's assertion, but Storch summed it up well.  You certainly don't have to believe in Creationism, but evolution, as described by Darwin, is refuted by SCIENCE, not the Bible. (Fossil records to support evolution didn't yet exist in Darwin's day, but he assumed it was just a matter of time---it's now been a century and change, still great unexplained holes)

Please provide specific and detailed examples with sources on each case where science refutes Evolution.  Please cite legitimate science research.


ack-ack

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by storch
Vudak,

please bear with me.  I am clearly not as well educated as you and others who post here are.  

here are some points I would like to bring up and possibly discuss.  these are matters which interest me greatly but that I understand only from a layman's perspective.

[/b]

reportedly darwinian evolution has been going through an internal revolt though to the outside world they put up a unified front.

Funny, the only ones that have been reporting this have been the ID/Creationists.  What proof do you have?
 

science does not know nor can it conclusively prove the age of the earth or of the universe. be it ten thousand years or ten thousand million years.[/b]

Not with current technology but with Carbon Dating and other techniques, we can come up with a pretty damn good idea how old something is and so far it shows that the world is a lot older than 6,000 years...

evolutionary biology has no answer for the "cambrian explosion" in the fossil record.

So the ID/Creationists would like to have you believe.



Look at this from bottom to top, from oldest to youngest. There are two lessons here: one is that the Cambrian was a real transition event, but the other is that it looks remarkably natural and progressive—something best explained by material phenomena and not unsupported speculation about mysterious and invisible Designers.

Roughly 570-600 million years ago, fossils are sparse, but they include the phosphatized embryos of the Doushantuo formation in China and a scattering of trace fossils. Trace fossils are the remains of trackways and burrows, not the animals themselves, and tell us that there were small soft-bodied and multicellular animals living on the substrate; we even have a few fossils of more elaborate, bilaterally-symmetric animals, comparable to flatworms.

Here are some of these early trace fossils; they are small squiggles in the sediment, the faintest signs of living creatures once having crawled there.



Near the end of the Neoproterozoic, the larger and more complex and enigmatic Vendian and Ediacaran fossils turn up. There are also more and more complicated trace fossils. Animals are getting larger and making more substantial trackways; in addition, they're beginning to burrow down into the sediment. We begin to see signs of a phenomenon called bioturbation, where the substrate is stirred and turned over by animal activity, which was absent before.



Another important feature begins to make its appearance: the small shelly fossils. These are little guys, only about 1 or 2mm across. The kings of creation at this time were scattered beasties the size of a baby's toenail, but still, it was a step upward in size and durability from what had come before.



The Cambrian itself begins 543 million years ago, and is broken up into periods several millions of years in length with their own distribution of fossils. The oldest, the Manykaian, is marked by more trace fossils, and a greater diversity of the small shelly fossils; the diagnostic fossil whose appearance is used to mark the beginning of the period is a trace fossil, the relatively large burrows of Treptichnus pedum. In the Tommotian, 530 million years ago, the first recognizable brachiopods and molluscs are found, and there are trace fossils that indicate something with many legs scurried by—the first arthropods. The first actual fossils of arthropods and echinoderms are found millions of years later.

It's more than ten million years later that the spectacular and strange animals of the Burgess Shale make their appearance. It's during the Middle Cambrian that we can say most of the modern phyla are present, although of course the representatives of those phyla don't look much at all like their modern members.

One message from these data is that the Cambrian 'explosion' was real. It isn't an artifact of poor sampling of ancient rocks—we have a range of good fossils from the period before, and it's clear that the pre-Cambrian world was a different place than the post-Cambrian.

But another important lesson, and one that creationists like to hide, is that while this was a sudden event in a geological sense, it wasn't actually all that rapid in human terms. The evolution of the canonical Cambrian forms was drawn out over tens of millions of years. They didn't just come out of nowhere, either; while individual lineages are cryptic, we see a slow aggregate increase in the complexity of multicellular animals in the fossil record that culminated in the flowering of large-animal diversity in the Cambrian.

I've had many creationists try to use the Argument from the Cambrian Explosion as a fait accompli against evolution (most recently, just this week). It's actually an argument from ignorance, though, since the data certainly does not fit a sudden creation by divine or alien fiat. It does fit with the idea of the appearance of these animals as a product of prior history, though…even though there are many mysteries about the details, the big picture does not require miracles or the supernatural.

Source

there is no evidence that all life on the planet evolved from a single common ancestor.

[/b]

There is ample evidence that Homo-sapiens evolved from primates like Homonids as the skeletol evidence of Lucy has shown.

there is no evidence of a single example of evolution from one species into an entirely new one (descent with modification).

[/b]

Yes there is, just look at whales.  Whales have pelvic bones from the time they lived on both land and in the water.  There are some species of birds, such as Raptors, that have the same bone structure found in fossils of certain dinosaur species, such as Velociraptors.

according to linus pauling "science is the search for truth"
bruce alberts, president of the U.S. national academy of sciences states "science and lies cannot coexist"

[/b]

True and which is why most educated people scoff at the notion of Creationism.
 

I think that the testing of a theory should never end.  all scientific knowledge should in principle be subject to revision as new evidence becomes available.  as an example we have seen a recent revision in astrology and how planets are now categorized as such.  

[/b]

The research into Evolution has hardly stopped since Darwin proposed his theory.

Your other points weren't points at all so I've refrained from commenting on them.


ack-ack

[Angus]

I've got a pile of fossils somewhere. All leaves of trees we have no more.
Not sure of their age, but they rank from the time where the N-hemisphere is quite warm and cosy. Way before the Ice-age.

[Toad]

Who's to blame for the global cooling anyway?

[Angus]

Gaya