Author Topic: Someone help me understand.....  (Read 5873 times)

Offline Stoney74

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Someone help me understand.....
« Reply #60 on: September 29, 2006, 12:36:16 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by hubsonfire
However, my sense of gamesmanship tells me that I should only enjoy winning at poker when I have done so fairly- that is to say, when I don't enjoy any sort of overwhelming advantage. I guess I fail to see how anyone would only play a game, or enjoy a game, in which they have some sort of advantage.  


Ok, bear with me on this one...

I fly Jugs a lot, its my favorite plane to fly.  Only thing is, you have to be careful about how you fly it, as its a slug down low.  Not fast enough to out run the burners, turns like a bullet, and climbs like a rock.  Dives like an S.O.B. though.  So, I take off behind friendly lines, climb to 15K plus, and then head for the action.  In my time playing, I can count on 1 hand the amount of time I've been able to fight the plane in its element--at 20-25K+, and they've always been either 152's or bombers.  I've seen Yucca and Blukitty do some nasty stuff when outnumbered and at a disadvantage in the Jug, but I'm no where near that good yet.  So, I try and set myself up for success before I enter the fight the best I know how at this point in my AH experience.

Now, take this technique wrought large. If I am trying to take a base, (and using the suicidal goon killers mentioned in my previous post) and trying to suppress the base while taking the town in order to keep the goon from dying before it can get troops out, I've got a strong motivation to try and take a base that is not showing any activity on the dar bar--surprise and all that.  I don't want GV's or planes shooting down the C-47.  If I rush headlong into a base with an established CAP, I can guarantee the goon doesn't last long.  

I don't expect any quarter in the MA.  The sterile environment of the TA and DA is where I can exercise skills in a fair fight.  Even if 85% of the pilots show some sort of sportsmanship and "fairness", the other 15% are prevalent enough to ruin my sortie expecting "rules".  If there was a sportsmanlike attitude around the MA's and a good fight resulting in air superiority for the attacker gave them a "gimme" base capture, you might see folks attack defended bases.  They would do so knowing their goon was safe unless their attack failed.  But, I've seen guys bail out of planes so they could run into the bunker and shoot the troops coming in.  With that type of defensive tenacity, you're going to have a hard time convincing the base-capture types they should modify their tactics...

Ideally, you would have an even distribution of players on one side defending, attacking, and flying patrols to knock down attacks before they got to the bases.  But, whose going to organize and/or convince people to go up and drone around at altitude for 45 mins at max cruise in order to CAP a portion of the map that is quiet, on the off chance someone might try and take the base?

For those that feel like taking bases is an entertaining part of the game, its a valid tactic.  Its certainly historically valid.  I'm not a big land-grab kind of player, but if I was, given the state of things in the MA's, I'd certainly use it.  My squad goes on the occasional base capture from time to time, and we use it as a tactic.  There's still some teamwork and technique necessary for the capture, regardless of whether or not anyone ups or not.  The only advantage the offense has in this game (from the strat aspect) is the initial surprise and momentum, and even that is threatened by god-like dar bar and the radar at each base.  Since the defenders can keep re-upping after they are killed, the offense doesn't offer an advantage long-held.  Take out all the fighter hangars, and people start upping IL-2's for the ultimate HO fest.  I personally think that is a pretty gamey technique, but it works for them and I expect it.  So again, yeah, the attackers have some fairly strong motivation to take bases where the crickets are chirping.  Remove that motivation by some technique other than peer pressure, and you've given them a fair shake at tackling a defended base.

Offline kamilyun

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« Reply #61 on: September 29, 2006, 01:30:49 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by hubsonfire
I like to play poker. I have a group of friends and acquaintenances with whom I enjoy playing poker. I like winning at poker even more than I like playing poker. However, my sense of gamesmanship tells me that I should only enjoy winning at poker when I have done so fairly- that is to say, when I don't enjoy any sort of overwhelming advantage. I guess I fail to see how anyone would only play a game, or enjoy a game, in which they have some sort of advantage. Doesn't having some sort of pronounced advantage, either with superior numbers, or by avoiding interaction with the opposing team, take the joy out of the win? If you haven't beaten anyone, or haven't interacted with your opponents, what have you really won?


This is the bestest analogy I have evar herd about balancing sides in this game.  Seriously.  I wish it was 5 lines or less b/c it would be my sig...  

:)

Offline Simaril

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« Reply #62 on: September 29, 2006, 06:35:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Flayed1

.........snip......

 And even if I did change teams there is no garontee that I could get other Bish to change with me so then I would end up fighting the no win war against the overwhelming odds that we have now right along side the nits.


......snip.........
 


So, you're pretty much saying that it would really suck to be on the receiving end of what you do to others.

But you keep doing it anyway, and you will keep doing it because you arent willing to step out alone.

It seems you see the problem -- which is why you won't go to the low side alone. After all, it sucks to be them, right?

But it also seems that if you "could get other bish to change with me" then treating the other guys fairly might be an option for you. So, I'd just ask this -- talk it over with some friends. Figure out what the barriers are that keep you from doing the right thing. See if those barriers are real (like principles of right and wrong) or just traditions subject to adjustment. See if your friends would be willing to try something different, to think outside their usual box....


....and try to treat other people the way you'd want to be treated if you were in their shoes.
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Offline SuperDud

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« Reply #63 on: September 29, 2006, 07:31:32 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Stoney74
Ok, bear with me on this one...

I fly Jugs a lot, its my favorite plane to fly.  Only thing is, you have to be careful about how you fly it, as its a slug down low.  Not fast enough to out run the burners, turns like a bullet, and climbs like a rock.  Dives like an S.O.B. though.  So, I take off behind friendly lines, climb to 15K plus, and then head for the action.  In my time playing, I can count on 1 hand the amount of time I've been able to fight the plane in its element--at 20-25K+, and they've always been either 152's or bombers.  I've seen Yucca and Blukitty do some nasty stuff when outnumbered and at a disadvantage in the Jug, but I'm no where near that good yet.  So, I try and set myself up for success before I enter the fight the best I know how at this point in my AH experience.

 


Nothing personnal BUT, you'll never get as good as YUCCA or Blu by climbing to 15K. How do you think they got as good as they are? They sure didn't go in 15K and pick. They went in low, died over and over and learned how to really fly that plane on the edge. Don't worry about dying, it's the only way to learn. Go in at a disadvantage knowing your going to get creamed. Who cares? Stall that big single engined bomber, push it to the edge. You'll never get "better" by staying up were it's safe. You have to dive in and take your lumps.
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Offline Ghosth

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« Reply #64 on: September 29, 2006, 07:46:52 AM »
Well said Hubsonfire!

Its like playing a FPS with cheats onin god mode, yeah it fills time, but is it really fun?

Granted, I used to be a "knights only" player. But with the new arena setups can anyone really afford to have that kind of loyalty anymore?

Offline Flayed1

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« Reply #65 on: September 29, 2006, 08:17:59 AM »
Ahhh but Sim my friend you keep missing the point that I was fighting the rooks  not the nits that only had 9 people on.... You keep trying to make it seem that I personally was over there on the Nit front ganging them but I wasn't. I was defending my bases from rooks who had around the same #'s as we did, dealing with the 29 ENY limiter as it poped on and off and was fine with it... If the game was simply all about furballing than swaping sides would be more of an option but I don't play just for the furball and would probably quit if it ever got to that point. On a good note the MWA was almost even last night  :)

  I kinda liked an idea or a varriant of it, I saw some where on the forum about making the low sided countries biulding hardness increase the more they were out #'d  To the point where they would be nearly impossible to take unless you brought most of your forces to bear on them but that would let the 3rd country hit you in the back door... So the end result would be that if you couldn't or it was extreamly difficult to take the low #'d side's bases then you would be forced to fight the more = #'d side if you wanted to play the land grab game.

   Hub the problem with the poker analogy is for me this would be like playing 2 of the 3 sides in a 3 person poker game...  What fun is there playing against myserlf?  I simply just play against the other player that is still in the game and ignore the extra 5% of the 3rd player untill there is enough of a person there to play against..  I can't do much about the other people that seem to want to play against the 5% of a person.
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Offline Stoney74

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« Reply #66 on: September 29, 2006, 08:40:50 AM »
What part of "I've seen Yucca and Blukitty do some nasty stuff when outnumbered and at a disadvantage in the Jug, but I'm no where near that good yet. So, I try and set myself up for success before I enter the fight the best I know how at this point in my AH experience." says any different?

I'm learning, ok?  For christ's sake, I was just trying to illustrate a point.

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« Reply #67 on: September 29, 2006, 08:50:35 AM »
I think you've missed the point while they missed your point.  you guys a far too pointy, blunt up some.

Offline Donzo

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« Reply #68 on: September 29, 2006, 09:00:21 AM »
Hubfucius say:
Quote
Originally posted by hubsonfire
I like to play poker. I have a group of friends and acquaintenances with whom I enjoy playing poker. I like winning at poker even more than I like playing poker. However, my sense of gamesmanship tells me that I should only enjoy winning at poker when I have done so fairly- that is to say, when I don't enjoy any sort of overwhelming advantage. I guess I fail to see how anyone would only play a game, or enjoy a game, in which they have some sort of advantage. Doesn't having some sort of pronounced advantage, either with superior numbers, or by avoiding interaction with the opposing team, take the joy out of the win? If you haven't beaten anyone, or haven't interacted with your opponents, what have you really won?


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Offline smash

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« Reply #69 on: September 29, 2006, 10:28:42 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by hubsonfire
However, my sense of gamesmanship tells me that I should only enjoy winning at poker when I have done so fairly- that is to say, when I don't enjoy any sort of overwhelming advantage. I guess I fail to see how anyone would only play a game, or enjoy a game, in which they have some sort of advantage.  


Really?  So you never bounce with an altitude advantage?  You never pull up deep in a guys 6 and sneak in to blast him before he knows you're there?

To some extent the whole game is about getting and exploiting the advantage.   The only place I draw the line is the suicide tactics.  Its a rare thing for me to auger for any reason.

Quote
Originally posted by TOAD
Seems like in the old days every aspect of the game was put there to encourage fighting between airplanes. That was the goal. Resets had no real meaning; in the early days, there wasn't even map change.

As we progressed this changed. It did not necessarily change because HTC changed it; we as players had the most effect. After the continual addition of many, many features somehow it was no longer about fighting per se.
 


Toad, if you're the same guy I remember (Val of Death?) then you and I both remember a 2d world with no strat - or almost none anyway.  And when we finally got strat - and it had some meaning - it was the coolest thing since sliced bread.

Creating a world that is more and more real brings with it behaviour changes, obviously.  Personally, I'm not interested in going backwards to less realism, but rather forward with enhancements that create an artificial world that as closely as possible resembles reality.  Thats the whole burrito - weather, gvs, naval -- everything.  Otherwise, whats the point?  Strictly to practice ACM in fighters?  I'm not saying I wouldn't show up for that, but it reminds me of liking icecream but only ever ordering vanilla.

Why even fly the TBM if you can't operate the aircraft realistically in the environment it was originally designed for?  They're not drones.

I dislike artificial limitations.  I'd much rather have the challenge of an enemy who can organize as he sees fit, and attack the way he wants.  

The one thing I would like to see changed  is something to eliminate suicide dweebs and impose some kind of penalty for dying.  Not just an incentive for living... thats not enough.  A real, honest tough penalty for dying in the aircraft.  Like on a per player basis one aircraft per type per 30 minutes.  Or one aircraft per type per 30 minutes per sector.  Something where planes are not an unlimited resource.
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Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #70 on: September 29, 2006, 10:44:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Overlag
up and defend, then they cant milkk run.

 


It doesn't matter if you up to defend your base because the milkrunners will stop their attack and move off to find another undefended base.


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Offline Donzo

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« Reply #71 on: September 29, 2006, 11:26:29 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
It doesn't matter if you up to defend your base because the milkrunners will stop their attack and move off to find another undefended base.


ack-ack


Okay.
Now up at the next indefended base the milkrunners are attacking and defend.

Offline hubsonfire

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« Reply #72 on: September 29, 2006, 11:34:21 AM »
Smash, Stoney, I'm talking about the refusal to do anything to improve gameplay as a whole. Only taking undefended fields with a mob, fleeing at the very threat of having to interact with your opponents, flying only for the side with the most numbers, etc.

 It has nothing to do with shooting people down from behind in the game, or trying to exploit the strengths of your plane or using your mortal fear of losing a fight to your advantage.  Admittedly, I don't enjoy that kind of thing, but I suppose you could make the case that some people always fold every hand that isn't a guaranteed winner. They may technically be "good" players in a sense, but they suck to have to play with. Either of the scenarios you mention is pretty much a polar opposite of both the discussion, and the type of thing I was referring too.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2006, 11:41:44 AM by hubsonfire »
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Offline Overlag

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« Reply #73 on: September 29, 2006, 12:07:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
It doesn't matter if you up to defend your base because the milkrunners will stop their attack and move off to find another undefended base.


ack-ack


this is the problem.

you blame the problem on THEM, doing exactly what any one "at war" would do, yet you wont move around and defend?
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Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #74 on: September 29, 2006, 12:34:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Overlag
this is the problem.

you blame the problem on THEM, doing exactly what any one "at war" would do, yet you wont move around and defend?


But that's the point that gets missed so often.  We're not at 'war', we're at game.

If death was real it would be one thing, but in AH there is no real cost when you die, and you get a brand new plane everytime you do :)
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