Author Topic: The night witches  (Read 4329 times)

Offline Pooh21

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« Reply #135 on: October 22, 2007, 02:48:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Can't speak for the way things are now. I do remember that when the first 5 females made it through pilot training they were given special treatment. That treatment didn't make the course harder, either. So I don't know if you could have said obstacles were placed in their way; I think the opposite was true.
Didnt one of the first female Navy pilots splatter herself all over the deck of a carrier on a routine landing?
Bis endlich der Fiend am Boden liegt.
Bis Bishland bis Bishland bis Bishland wird besiegt!

Offline Toad

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« Reply #136 on: October 22, 2007, 02:52:45 PM »
There is no doubt there was an institutional bias against allowing females into UPT. However, when the command came down (and it took a command directive) suitable applicants were found and ATC saluted and did what was ordered.

As I said though, once those 10 women got to UPT, their path was smoothed. I'm not arguing if that was right or wrong, I'm merely saying it was so. When the 5 of the 10 came to the command I served in, SAC, their path was smoothed. I don't think any of the male pilots found that remarkable. We all knew they would not be allowed to fail; after all, the USAF never makes mistakes.  ;)

Before you go getting your dander up again, I think the 5 we got, from all the info I heard and from personal experience with one of them, fit the bell curve.

As for gender bias, to a certain extent I am sympathetic. There does come a point, however, when I begin to wonder when there will be satisfaction.  What remaining real barriers are there?

Yes, there are individual cases that end up in court. You will always have that, just as we have with race, religion and other prejudices.

By and large though, I think a woman will be allowed to try anything she wants to try at this point.

Along with that comes the freedom to fail, just like it does for everyone else. That is when you'll have true equality.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Tigeress

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« Reply #137 on: October 22, 2007, 02:53:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pooh21
Didnt one of the first female Navy pilots splatter herself all over the deck of a carrier on a routine landing?


Yes she did. She crashed and died. Although Navy pilots would probably say no carrier landing is "routine." But yes, no extraordinary conditions.

It was immediately assumed and verbalized publically by many male navy pilots and brass, thus believed, her death was due to pilot error attributed to an assumed relaxed standard for female fighter pilots, which was not the case.

There was a lot of egg on a lot of men's faces when it was finally determined the crash was due to mechanical failure.

Her name was Lt. Kara S. Hultgreen USN and she was flying a Navy F-14A Tomcat.
 
Navy Faults Engine in Female Pilot's Crash

TIGERESS
« Last Edit: October 22, 2007, 03:22:40 PM by Tigeress »

Offline Toad

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« Reply #138 on: October 22, 2007, 03:18:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pooh21
Didnt one of the first female Navy pilots splatter herself all over the deck of a carrier on a routine landing?


Yep, Hultgren I think. Makes her absolutely no different than a boatload of other males who have done that too.

It's not that difficult to splatter yourself all over the deck of a carrier, even on a routine landing. It just takes one little moment of inattention.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Tigeress

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« Reply #139 on: October 22, 2007, 03:26:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Yep, Hultgren[sic] I think. Makes her absolutely no different than a boatload of other males who have done that too.

It's not that difficult to splatter yourself all over the deck of a carrier, even on a routine landing. It just takes one little moment of inattention.


Oh yeah... By the way, her callsign was Revlon.

She crashed and died due to engine failure at the age of 29.

This is a photo of REVLON



The carrier she was on finals to land on was the USS Abraham Lincoln on October 25, 1994.
 
Both she and her radar intercept officer (her RIO), Lieutenant Matthew Klemish, ejected, but only he survived.

Because the plane rolled onto its back as it went out of control, Hultgreen was ejected directly into the sea and was killed instantly.

Her body was recovered November 12 1994 in 3,700 feet of water not far from the sunken jet.

She was buried with full military honors at Arlington National Cemetery.

TIGERESS
« Last Edit: October 22, 2007, 03:53:57 PM by Tigeress »

Offline Toad

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« Reply #140 on: October 22, 2007, 03:52:12 PM »
Tigress, have you ever read the Mishap Investigation Report on that accident?

I don't want you to think I'm picking on you but you probably should read it. Cut to the conclusions for the short version.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Tigeress

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« Reply #141 on: October 22, 2007, 03:56:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Tigress, have you ever read the Mishap Investigation Report on that accident?

I don't want you to think I'm picking on you but you probably should read it. Cut to the conclusions for the short version.


I don't have access to her Mishap Investigation Report; just media coverage at this point.

IF you have access to it I would like to read it.

I have always maintained and asserted my motivations are for the complete facts in lieu of needing to feed an ego that wants to avoid being proven wrong at all costs in spite of the facts, known or unknown, liked or not liked.

I may or may not like the facts but facts, by definition, are indisputable.
It's the way of a good engineer.

TIGERESS

EDIT: Check that. I found what appears to be a ligitimate copy of her MIR on http://yarchive.net/mil/f14_hultgreen_accident.html

What I read in this is two things...

1. There was an engine malfunction
2. The casual factors of this mishap and injury are a result of overcontrol, external distraction, cognitive saturation, channelized attention, wear debris, complacency and problem not forseeable.

That is to say, it looks to me that the crash was perhaps unavoidable but her death was a result of stress induced brain overload.

F-14A Mishap Investigation Report

(Military City Online note: This is the Mishap Investigation Report into the
Oct. 25, 1994, crash that killed a Navy F- 14A Tomcat fighter pilot, Lt. Kara
Hultgreen.  The report, which was released only to a limited number of
members of the aviation community, includes a list of acronyms used in the
text.)



12. Conclusions
A. Mishap narrative: MC flew as wingman during case II recovery for CQ
refresher.  After normal break and landing  pattern entry, MP commenced
approach turn.  Computed wings level on speed was 139 KIAS.  MR noticed
aircraft decelerating during approach turn from approx ten kts fast abeam to
eight kts fast at the ninety to ten kts slow during final approach.  MP flew
WUOSX, 42 to 45 deg AOB.  CLSO and BLSO observed MA exhibit noticeable left
YAW, which was perceived as MP applying left rudder to arrest overshoot.  MP
reduced power to maintain on speed while rolling wings level.  Additionally,
MCB system on left engine was stuck in bleeds closed position due to wear
debris.  These factors combined to cause a left eng comp stall.  During
postmishap recollection, MR remembered hearing an almost imperceptible
``pop,'' similar to a ``popcorn stall,'' prior to ma crossing ship's wake.
 During final approach MR transmitted on ICS, ``we're ten knots slow, let's
get some power on the jet.'' MP did not respond verbally, but did add power.
 There was no further ICS comm by MC during remainder of MF.  As MA rolled
wings level at start, black smoke trail appeared from right eng only,
indicating left eng malfunction.  MP did not inform MR of eng malfunction.
 BLSO initiated waveoff verbally and visually for WUOSX.  Black smoke trail
>from right eng ceased, indicating   right eng staging to a/b.  CLSO echoed
``waveoff'' twice, cutting out BLSO ``level your wings and climb.'' BLSO made
one ``power'' call, two ``raise your gear'' calls and a second ``power''
call.  Throughout waveoff, left YAW and rod persisted.  MP had applied right
stick and rudder to counter asymmetric thrust.  MR did not observe any eng
stall warning lights.  MP lost situational awareness, failed to scan AOA,
allowed pitch attitude to slowly increase and exceeded maximum controllable
AOA of 20 units.  At approximately flight deck level, MA stalled, departed
controlled flight, and rolled rapidly left.  CLSO called ``eject, eject'' as
MR initiated command ejection.  MR and MP ejection seats both departed MA.
 MR achieved seat-man separation and main parachute deployment.  MP seat
fired outside safe ejection envelope, impacted water prior to seat-man
separation, damaging seat and interrupting seat sequence.  The causal factors
of this mishap and injury are a result of overcontrol, external distraction,
cognitive saturation, channelized attention, wear debris, complacency and
problem not forseeable.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2007, 05:53:14 PM by Tigeress »

Offline Tigeress

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The night witches
« Reply #142 on: October 22, 2007, 04:56:30 PM »
You know, Toad, another thing about facts are how they are applied by some people in a perverted way.

Simple case in point of good facts as far as they go; bad conclusion.

Men should never be allowed to fly combat because it is a known fact that the vast majority of combat crashes and shoot downs by the enemy were cases where men were at the controls of the downed planes. Therefore, women should be the only ones flying combat.

I see this kind of warped thinking often. It's rampant in gender bias and there are both men and women who do it against the other.

I try very hard to avoid that. There are others who use it as their primary modus operandi.

I discovered that I suffer from channelized attention when highly stressed and that is the reason I only fly in real life with another pilot in the plane and independently elected not finish pilot training.

I was heart broken to discover that in myself but I didn't want to risk it and possibly get killed and possibly take other people with me. Only to a very few did I ever admit that to in real life when I opted out of completing civilian pilot training.

I feel I could have completed my training and gotten the ticket in spite of it. Perhaps I could have overcome it with applied training to defeat it but I didn't want to risk it.

I wanted to be a military aviator; a good one.

Here, flying Sim Combat, I am immortal thus no high-stress induced "channelized  attention."

TIGERESS
« Last Edit: October 22, 2007, 06:11:51 PM by Tigeress »

Offline Mark Luper

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« Reply #143 on: October 22, 2007, 06:19:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tigeress

I discovered that I suffer from channelized attention when highly stressed and that is the reason I only fly in real life with another pilot in the plane and independently elected not finish pilot training.

I was heart broken to discover that in myself but I didn't want to risk it and possibly get killed and possibly take other people with me. Only to a very few did I ever admit that to in real life when I opted out of completing civilian pilot training.

I feel I could have completed my training and gotten the ticket in spite of it. Perhaps I could have overcome it with applied training to defeat it but I didn't want to risk it.

I wanted to be a military aviator; a good one.

Here, flying Sim Combat, I am immortal thus no high-stress induced "channelized  attention."

TIGERESS


So what is channelized attention? Untill the previous post I had never heard of it.

I gave up private training for a different reason. Money and I think fear. I didn't think I could ever  learn the ATC system well enough for the amount of time I could afford to fly if I had gotten my ticket.

 I don't think I would ever have had a problem with the actual control of an aircraft, I was called a "natural" by more than one instructer. Not completing my training was  very dissapointing to me. My father had been a pilot and I had always wanted to do the same thing not because my father did it but because I really enjoyed it myself.

I fly PC simulators because of that. ( when I can find time, anyway )

Mark
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Offline Tigeress

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« Reply #144 on: October 22, 2007, 07:36:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mark Luper
So what is channelized attention? Untill the previous post I had never heard of it.

I gave up private training for a different reason. Money and I think fear. I didn't think I could ever  learn the ATC system well enough for the amount of time I could afford to fly if I had gotten my ticket.

 I don't think I would ever have had a problem with the actual control of an aircraft, I was called a "natural" by more than one instructer. Not completing my training was  very dissapointing to me. My father had been a pilot and I had always wanted to do the same thing not because my father did it but because I really enjoyed it myself.

I fly PC simulators because of that. ( when I can find time, anyway )

Mark


Channelized attention exists when a person's full attention is focused on one stimulus to the exclusion of all others.

In a way its a panic manifestation.

TIGERESS
« Last Edit: October 22, 2007, 08:10:02 PM by Tigeress »

Offline AKIron

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« Reply #145 on: October 22, 2007, 07:39:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tigeress
Channelized attention exists when a person's full attention is focused on one stimulus to the exclusion of all others.

TIGERESS


You almost make it sound like a bad thing.  ;)
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Offline Mark Luper

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« Reply #146 on: October 22, 2007, 08:08:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tigeress
Channelized attention exists when a person's full attention is focused on one stimulus to the exclusion of all others.

TIGERESS


I see. I always thought of that as tunnel vision but I suppose that could also be the effect of g loading on the body.

Sorry to hear about that, you seem to have a lot to offer as a career pilot.

Mark
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Offline Tigeress

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« Reply #147 on: October 22, 2007, 08:12:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mark Luper
I see. I always thought of that as tunnel vision but I suppose that could also be the effect of g loading on the body.

Sorry to hear about that, you seem to have a lot to offer as a career pilot.

Mark

Thank you for the compliment, Mark. Means a lot to me and I really appreciate it.

I believe that true tunnel vision is visual... due to lowered blood pressure in the brain thus a dangerous level of oxygen deprivation. I have experienced it but not due to G-force.

My back-down was an issue of self-trust with human lives. I was astounded when I realized I did it in a high stress situation. Like I said, it may have been defeated with the right training.

TIGERESS
« Last Edit: October 22, 2007, 09:30:37 PM by Tigeress »

Offline Tigeress

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« Reply #148 on: October 22, 2007, 08:17:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mark Luper
So what is channelized attention? Untill the previous post I had never heard of it.

I gave up private training for a different reason. Money and I think fear. I didn't think I could ever  learn the ATC system well enough for the amount of time I could afford to fly if I had gotten my ticket.

 I don't think I would ever have had a problem with the actual control of an aircraft, I was called a "natural" by more than one instructer. Not completing my training was  very dissapointing to me. My father had been a pilot and I had always wanted to do the same thing not because my father did it but because I really enjoyed it myself.

I fly PC simulators because of that. ( when I can find time, anyway )

Mark


My father, when he was very young, was a bomber crewman... B-17G.
He loved aircraft and passed it on to all us kids.

You would have overcome the fear with experience... I am sure of it.
Dad said fear of the unknown can be defeated by knowing the unknown.
I can sense you mind even through a forum. The ATC would have gotten to be second nature for you.

mmm... initially I had to get my head out of the cockpit and instrument panel... that was overcome pretty easily after enough flight hours when it started feeling natural and started getting a feel for the horizon... such as maintaining level flight without looking at the Artificial Horizon while making turns. IFR was easy to me.

Even did some aerobatics such as hammer heads with a guy I used to fly with and started getting a good feel for the effects of G-force. Darn near left my tummy a thousand feet above me at first. wow! but never got nausated... not even once. Then being body compressed with positive Gs on the pull out from the dive... wow.

I knocked 'em dead wearing the blinders right out of the starting gates. Took to the instruments like a duck to water. attitude trimming was a no-brainer.

Navigating was awsome!!!! loved it!

Oddly, I found external view in AH to be great because it kept my eyes off the inst. panel without distraction and let me just fly in an intuitive way even though the physical clues like Gs/inertia were missing ...flying like a bird.

The J-3 was my favorite ride... it was the closest thing to a WWI ride I ever drove. Always wanted to drive an open cockpit bi-plane.

I went so far as to take parachute training and logged two jumps.
SERIOUSLY thrilling... that was the truest feeling of flying like a bird in some ways I ever felt. Since I was the newbie I was designated as the first to exit the jump plane... ohhh gee. That was probably the highest level of fear I have experienced till the chute popped open and got the twist out of the risers and started steering with the toggles.

TIGERESS
« Last Edit: October 22, 2007, 09:12:33 PM by Tigeress »

Offline texasmom

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« Reply #149 on: October 22, 2007, 09:07:31 PM »
You a pilot Tigress? Nice :)
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