Author Topic: The night witches  (Read 4255 times)

Offline Tigeress

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« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2007, 02:35:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
Ok... so how many women fighter pilots in russia... or anywhere else.. shot down planes after WWII...  a cosmonaut would be about like our astronauts I would think... just meat along for the ride.. we used monkeys mostly at first.

no army that is not desperate for cannon fodder would... or even should... use women in combat roles.   If you are short on humanity or simply desperate then... yeah.. they can stop a bullet too.

If you look at the armies that used women you will see what I mean about lacking humanity or simply desperate with no other resources.

lazs


How many have been prevented from flying thus scoring kills since WWII?

There is an old saying... "Pride goeth before the fall".

Survival trumps male pride... as noble as it is.

If the US sustained heavy hits on the homeland and was fighting a battle for our very survival at fronts on our own soil... women would be there to return fire, along with the men.

Permission to do so be damned. You know it; I know it. Tell that to the women who were fighting in the French resistance.

And that was exactly the situation in Russia.

Its with understandable and gallant honor that men... men like yourself  protect us Lazs. And for that I am grateful, honored and respectful.

If it comes down to it... we will also fight to survive... it is our human nature to do so.

I understand where you are coming from... you are a noble man.

TIGERESS
« Last Edit: October 17, 2007, 03:02:04 PM by Tigeress »

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2007, 02:57:38 PM »
you can't have it both ways... if they were so great then why would the enlightened russians throw them on the scrap heap when the war ended?

Why not let em fly in korea and vietnam and afghanistan?    

Why were they "prevented"?

It is simply a bad idea.  

lazs

Offline Tigeress

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« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2007, 03:02:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
you can't have it both ways... if they were so great then why would the enlightened russians throw them on the scrap heap when the war ended?

Why not let em fly in korea and vietnam and afghanistan?    

Why were they "prevented"?

It is simply a bad idea.  

lazs


Why? Because they are noble men also, dear... just like you.

But the backs of the Russian people were against the wall with a gun to their head.
They had no other option but to let their women fly in real combat... to kill or be killed.

Russian men and women are honorable people. And they are absolutely suvivors.
They didn't ask for that war; they were invaded. The Jews among them knew their fate if the Nazis won. Not a one of them would be left alive.
Many of these women fighters were Jewish.

It could, and may... happen here. I pray it doesn't ever come to that.

And That... is why women in combat has always been... and will always be... controversial.

War is a nasty business.

TIGERESS
« Last Edit: October 17, 2007, 04:22:05 PM by Tigeress »

Offline Viking

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« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2007, 05:24:03 PM »
"Noble" as he may be, Lazs is a bigot in more ways than one. Not allowing women in the military is as anachronistic as Lazs' "must protect the women of our tribe or we'll die out" mentality. The fact of the matter is that there are too many of us already and sustaining our huge populations is not an issue. As long as the women recruits compete on an even footing with their male counterparts I have no reservations against them serving. Women may be physically disadvantaged by nature with regard to soldiering, but it is not such a big disadvantage that they cannot overcome it through training and exercise. They simply have to work a bit harder to get there.

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Offline Viking

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« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2007, 05:33:28 PM »
Actually the only problem I see with regard to women serving in the military is the way young males react to having women around. However, controlling hormone-fueled urges is a male problem that we have to work at.

Offline Tigeress

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« Reply #35 on: October 17, 2007, 05:44:19 PM »
Hi Viking,

Like I mentioned before. It will always be controversial. Always...

And it always has been so.

TIGERESS

Offline Viking

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« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2007, 05:49:12 PM »
In my corner of the world it is not. As a species I'm quite disappointed that we haven't come further than this.

Offline Thrawn

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« Reply #37 on: October 17, 2007, 07:05:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
you can't have it both ways... if they were so great then why would the enlightened russians throw them on the scrap heap when the war ended?

Why not let em fly in korea and vietnam and afghanistan?    

Why were they "prevented"?

It is simply a bad idea.  

lazs




I wonder what an actual fighter pilot would have to say about this issue?

"Lazs

To be honest, in the air it never comes up, even subconsciously. I've seen tapes of guys literally dying trying to save another guy, so having a girl up there doesn't change the equation especially after she's "proven herself" by going through the same training everyone else accomplishes.

I'm not sure how it works in the Army where you can actually SEE the other people, but when flying the training usually kicks in and overrides personal concerns. Those who can't leave their emotions in their lockers on the ground tend to wash out or get killed.

I worry more about some of the guys than I would about Capt Malachowski. I know she can handle herself. We have one set of flying rules, one set of standards, and we are extremely hard on ourselves about meeting and upholding the standards. That means that nobody gets any extra consideration for any reason. It's harsh and makes life pretty tough on those who struggle being as good as everyone else, but that's one of the things that separates our AF from the forces of some other nations.

Heck, my female cousin was a medic in her vehicle maintenance unit and after working with her awhile, they made her the standard driver for their "gunship" armored humvee. They didn't care that she was a girl, they just wanted the best driver behind the wheel of the vehicle that was the toughest to drive, the one that they'd count on when the shxt went down. I think most of the US military has adapted. That doesn't mean that given their choice the guys wouldn't follow their instincts and keep the women and children out of harm's way, but it means that they've learned (or been indoctrinated) to separate those feelings from their daily routine, to the point where for most troops it just doesn't matter anymore.

Besides, after you've gotten gunned mercilessly by a female weapons school grad a couple of times, you pretty much tend look to her for help instead of following a foolish and misplaced sense of chivalry by trying to watch out for her more than you would anyone else.

It's a tough world and in the end, maybe it helps to remember that there are some damn smart and tough women out there who volunteered to help defend our little part of the world."

http://forums.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=153212

Offline Tigeress

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« Reply #38 on: October 18, 2007, 05:30:01 AM »
Idealistic and noble men can think what they want... we will kill to survive if pushed. And will do so with a unique savagery.

We women have proven time and again on the battle field and in the air, that when it comes down to it, we will fight to the death with skill and absolute determination.

It is absolutely indisputable.

Want to talk about Human instincts?

How about the instinct that caused the human race to survive the Stone Age to present day?

Every human possesses this instinct. Man and woman.

Without it, we would not be here today.

We would have been wiped out as a viable species.

Other humanoid species were wiped out... probably due to the intellect of Homo Sapiens coupled with our very strong survival instincts.

I think… part of the issue of women serving in the military is that males have an instinct to dominate the gene pool with their own personal semen.
Thus, male possession of us is paramount to this instinct.

Why do you think it is that conquering armies, since the dawn of time, are instinctively driven to perform strategic copulation with all the females of the conquered and tend to hold back their own females from their battle area?

Males historically protect what they consider their females and are driven to possess females they they don't already have, thereby killing off for all time the conquered males.

In my view, this is the real reason males are instinctively and seriously pre-occupied with reproductive behavior, even if they don't know why.
We do not live in pre-historic times... some instincts are hang-overs from that era. But these instincts are still with us.

War is a strange thing. Women are not driven to start wars... men are.

You men reach down inside of yourselves and take a look at this and then tell me I am wrong about it. I don't think I am wrong.

TIGERESS
« Last Edit: October 18, 2007, 06:29:49 AM by Tigeress »

Offline Viking

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« Reply #39 on: October 18, 2007, 06:20:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tigeress
War is a strange thing. Women are not driven to start wars... men are.


Well ... I don't think that statement is backed up by much scientific research. I think the real issue is that very few women have been in a position to start wars. Of those few at least Indira Gandhi and Margaret Thatcher started wars in the last 50 years (although Thatcher was provoked into war by Argentinian military action). The notion that "if the world's nations were led by women there would be no wars" is a myth. You only have to look at the female politicians of today to understand that they are just as bad in every way as the male politicians.

Offline Viking

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« Reply #40 on: October 18, 2007, 06:36:29 AM »
Oh, and let's not forget Golda Meir. She is perhaps the benchmark of "Iron-handed" female political leadership.

Offline Tigeress

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« Reply #41 on: October 18, 2007, 06:42:30 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Viking
Well ... I don't think that statement is backed up by much scientific research. I think the real issue is that very few women have been in a position to start wars. Of those few at least Indira Gandhi and Margaret Thatcher started wars in the last 50 years (although Thatcher was provoked into war by Argentinian military action). The notion that "if the world's nations were led by women there would be no wars" is a myth. You only have to look at the female politicians of today to understand that they are just as bad in every way as the male politicians.


Food for debate...

Why are males driven to dominate? …To the point of controlling every Country?

There have been women in history that ruled a country either by royal blood lines or popular election but it is the exception and not without male power majority in the background.

We have an intellect capacity that puts us on par with males but not the gender instinct to dominate them, gender to gender, in the main.
We have the intellect capacity to rule countries and have proven that. It is indisputable.

I am not making a judgment call as to which is better... male or female, just observing historical behavior. Personally, I view the two genders as two halves of a whole. How can one be better if each can not survive from generation to generation without the other? I see the two genders as different yet equals in terms of being human.

I do not consider my gender to be inferior to male... we are not.

Getting to the bottom of the issues, I think, is the key... to peel back the layers of the onion to reveal what lies at its core.

Males are wired, by testosterone, to dominate... to the point of controlling every country.
That includes an instinct to dominate us... the females of the species.

Every woman knows of this behavior of males... first hand. We live with the reality of it every day.

The focus of the discussion is females serving in the military.

Lazs states he thinks it's a bad idea... empirically, and by study of history, I feel understand why he said it. Thus I am referring back to my previous post about instinctive male drives for possession of the gene pool and denial of other male's access to the gene pool. Some people refer to it as typical male horniness coupled with male-on-male ownage and it is a very real hormonally driven instinct to survive by instinctive domination.

Think we women don’t have an empirical understanding of men?
Think again... it dominates our reality and lives... and always has, and likely it always will. Intellect is the path out of life driven by base instincts that no longer serves a viable purpose.

It is yet to be determined whether there remains a viable purpose for some instincts.

Frankly, I can't imagine life without males, as is... we are symbiotic; albiet, with socialized domestication.
Gender instincts affects us all but in the modern age, this is not an all encompassing "You Tarzan; Me Jane" reality in which we live today.

TIGERESS
« Last Edit: October 18, 2007, 08:32:31 AM by Tigeress »

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #42 on: October 18, 2007, 08:19:02 AM »
LOL.. a wall of text from viking and tigress and all you are really saying is that it is a bad idea because...

Because men and women are different... viking/schlotsie says that all we have to do is change the nature of man so that he will allow women to die and suffer just the same as he would a man.

Thrawn makes a point... in the air.. who knows?  no one really... til they are shot  down and captured.  Glad we had no women shot down and captured in vietnam.. or captured period.

Pretend the world and human nature is something it is not all you want but...  we don't want to see women suffer or die..  women are not as agressive or strong.  women captives will never be the same as men captives.  nor will their effect on us.

And.. it is a good thing.. I do not want to live in a world where women and children are "equal" and can be made to suffer equally.

for you equal people... should I be able to punch out a woman who is mouthy?   One that hits or slaps me?  

Look at the police... look at the cops raped..  how many cops were raped before women police?  sure... I hear the movies and media saying they are just as good... then I hear the grunts on the ground saying that if they could they would never have a woman partner.   course... the level of ability to defend even themselves of cops these days has fallen almost down to the level of women but... bringing levels down is not the best way to make things "equal"

I have been hit by women but have never hit one back... how bout you guys?

in your better world... what would happen?   I offer my seat to women if they are standing.... would that not be an extreme insult in your world?  

lazs

Offline Tigeress

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« Reply #43 on: October 18, 2007, 08:50:25 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
LOL.. a wall of text from viking and tigress and all you are really saying is that it is a bad idea because...
lazs


I suggest reading that wall... not ignoring it.
I can tell by what you wrote that you did not read my last post.

I think you might be surprised.

Please read it... then reply again, Ok?
Otherwise the discussion turns into one person blocking and talking over the other one in an effort to dominate.

Otherwise, if that is how its going to be, there is no point in my continuing... :)

TIGERESS
« Last Edit: October 18, 2007, 09:09:29 AM by Tigeress »

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #44 on: October 18, 2007, 09:08:10 AM »
I did read it and you are really saying that men and women are different.

You seem to want to ignore that fact when it suits you and claim equality.  there is no equality.

You also claim that women understand men.   that is either untrue or.. women are really really stupid.  women  have no clue as to what drives and makes a man.  women marry men on death row... women have wanted me when I was at my worst..

women would not try to change men if they really did understand them.. look at the way men interact with other men... they DO understand.. women have no clue.  even if they get a glimmer..   they ignore it and go with what they want men to be instead of what they really are.   Women get it wrong every time.

oh.. and I was trying to reply to 3 different people.. it may have caused some confusion but...

I think it odd that us not being able to communicate seems to prove my point more than yours.

lazs