Here's what's wrong with the arenas

[Fencer51]

It used to be that an "imbalance" would occur and eventually would even itself out, as more of that side logged on.  Now, with the caps in place once an "imbalance" occurs it remains as the arena fills up.  Yes the cap adjusts but the other arena soaks up alot of people who would otherwise be of assistance to the screwed side.

[hitech]

Mugzeee:

But i think it is safe to say, that allocating new players to the low numbered country at signup and first log on, is the only way to balance the count.

It has been this way for over a month.


HiTech

[Simaril]

I dont remember the thread it came from, but I've been thinking a lot about the "slots available per country" idea. I know HTC likes to move stepwise, letting the ripples settle before another change is made, but it seems to me that the slots system would address many problems -- and if the slots were as dynamic as the caps, the system would solve this trouble too.

[SlapShot]

Originally posted by Max
OMG!!! Perfect spelling  WTG Google.

Wrong ...  

"But that is not the same as stating as you did that it dose not fix (improve) side imbalance."

[SlapShot]

Originally posted by Simaril
I dont remember the thread it came from, but I've been thinking a lot about the "slots available per country" idea. I know HTC likes to move stepwise, letting the ripples settle before another change is made, but it seems to me that the slots system would address many problems -- and if the slots were as dynamic as the caps, the system would solve this trouble too.

Originally posted by SlapShot
Let me see if I have this right ... and I will use numbers that are easiest for explanation and not the real numbers.

If ...

LW1 and LW2 have a cap of 100 and when an LW arena population reaches 50% of the cap, the other LW cap is increased by 50 seats.

So ...

Once LW1 reaches 50 players, LW2 cap is increased to 150 and LW1 still has room of 50 more players before is reaches its cap.

Once the 100 cap is reached in LW1 no more entry is allowed.

Now that LW2 cap has been increased to 150, players will begin to fill up LW2. Once LW2 reaches a population of 75 players, LW1 cap will be raised to 150. At this point, people really have a choice of LW1 or LW2 because neither has reached their respective caps.

So at this instant we would see ...

LW1 - 50/150
LW2 - 75/150

==============================================

Now lets go back to the beginning and start again ...

Once LW1 reaches 50 players, LW2 cap is increased to 150 and LW1 still has room of 50 more players.

Once the 100 cap is reached in LW1 (current numbers in LW1 are - 60 Rooks - 25 Knights - 15 Bish) and someone selects LW1 while the cap has been realized, they are presented with another popup choice ...

LW1 - Knights (until they reach a population of 60*)
LW1 - Bish (until they reach a population of 60*)
LW2 - Open for all at the moment

*60 is set by the highest single population at the point that the cap had been reached ... in this case, the Rooks had 60 when the cap was reached.

This way, someone who wants to play in LW1 and is willing to join one of the weaker sides, is allowed entry. So ... If I choose Bish ... the the cap is now 101/101 ... so on and so forth until balance is achieved (180/180), and at that point, there is no more entry into LW1 until LW2 has reached its saturation point causing the cap in LW1 to be increased.

So if LW1 did reach 180/180 by people choosing the under populated countries and LW2 eventually did reach it 50% saturation point, the new cap for LW1 would be 180 + 50 = 230 so we would see ...

LW1 - 180/230
LW2 - 75/150

I realize that this would take some coading, but it could help to alleviate lopsided numbers in "capped" arenas using people who don't care what country they belong to.

Originally posted by Overlag


something like that would be cool


the numbers i used are just made up... percentages or hard numbers would have to be thought off after the coding is put in place.....

[Krusty]

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
The problem is the people from one country assume they have a complete and accurate view of the entire map and all interaction between all three countries.

Good point. From *my* perspective, we had countless rook and bish hitting us on our last island nonstop for over an hour, endless streams from both North and Southwest. We literally had a small pie-wedge of the map, and it was only 2 sectors wide at the edge of the map. I think I only saw 1 base blinking on the bish/rook front (on almost the exact opposite side of the map from us). I will chage my point to say "I don't know for sure, but if 1 or 2 fights did take place between rooks and bish, it didn't slow down or detract from the numbers that were hitting knit.

Originally posted by hitech
Btw it isn't an observation either, you have drawn a conclusion that isn't proved  by your facts.

Also I am not stating that lower numbers does improve side balance, I am just showing the difference between an observation vs the conclusion you drew from the observation.

Good point. I chose poorly when I worded my post. Sorry. However, my sample size was greater than 1. It seems there's always 1 weakest side, and it gets hit by both larger sides, since this arena split happened. Mind you I like the arena split and think it has potential, but don't see improvement in side balance as of yet.

Also, in regards to the country slots: I'm against that. Too prohibitive in general. It goes against my nature. That's my proverbial vote.

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by hitech
Btw it isn't an observation either, you have drawn a conclusion that isn't proved  by your facts.

At best your facts show lower number did not improve side imbalance in the case you listed.  But that is not the same as stating as you did that it dose not fix (improve) side imbalance.  Also I am not stating that lower numbers does improve side balance (that is yet to be seen, and other forces are creating waves in the system), I am just showing the difference between an observation (The numbers listing you did, is an observation) vs the conclusion you drew from the observation.

Actually have to disagree.

Krusty is spot on with his conclusion.
Like it or not the changes have resulted in imbalanced arenas, more so and more often than pre the changes.
If one country is getting hammered chances are a lot goto another arena further imbalancing the numbers in that arena, and doing the same on the arena they goto.

This has been pointed out numerous times.

Even with even numbers all sides have experienced the 'gangbang'.

Would suggest the only way to stop that particular happening is to go to only two countries, also has the added advantage in that it is easier to balance 2 countries than 3.
Until that happens I think your just flogging a dead horse.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

The AH Main Arena has been unbalanced on a regular basis ever since I came to AH in 2001. It comes and goes, always has, and likely always will.

Just sayin.

[Mugzeee]

Originally posted by hitech
Mugzeee:
 

It has been this way for over a month.


HiTech

Now to stop the bouncing ball effect once players are in.

I know it would take some time before things would settle in.

Logistically it would be a pain to empliment.

But a lock in of sorts would be the only way to balance numbers it seems.

Then you have the "Time issue" (at one time things are balanced. Next thing ya know its bed time for 60 players and the imbalance is there again.

I wish it were as simple as players switching sides to balance numbers...but i think we all know it isnt going to happen that way.

As usual...more questions than answers

In this great quest to balance the sides...I am seeing that almost every solution will further alienate Squads in AH2 as we know them.

With each and nearly every solution suggested there is an obvious negitive effect it will have on current squads.

They could form new ones once things settle down...but soon they will have yet another implication that will displace them yet again.

[Max]

Originally posted by SlapShot
Wrong ...  

"But that is not the same as stating as you did that it dose not fix (improve) side imbalance."

Nitpicker

[Atoon]

I think I like the 2 countries idea, yet I fear that the inherent mentallity of the player base will still choose to make things uneven:huh


What would we call the 2 countries? Roobishights & Knibiooks?

[Simaril]

Originally posted by Atoon
I think I like the 2 countries idea, yet I fear that the inherent mentallity of the player base will still choose to make things uneven:huh

Slap's idea is still better, especially when you realize that:
1. The slots can be set up to allow all those IN the arena to stay, but to favor the low country when new folks are added;
2. The slots idea, coupled with a queue, would perfectly address the potential conflict between squads' desire to fly together and everyone else's desire to have reasonable gameplay balance;
3. The slots system allows transparency (if you see the queue, you get to choose whether you'd like to wait, switch sides, or go elsewhere), avoids the blatant force of most online games' side balancing -- and so may encounter less resistance than other options.
4. Lastly, I'm pretty sure in remembering that somewhere along the way HT has had experience seeing what happens with 2 sides in MMO flight sims. His persistance with the 3 sides tells me that something about 2 sides is worse than what we see now.

Originally posted by Atoon

What would we call the 2 countries? Roobishights & Knibiooks?

[Overlag]

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
The AH Main Arena has been unbalanced on a regular basis ever since I came to AH in 2001. It comes and goes, always has, and likely always will.

Just sayin.

yes and no. the balance would be out for a few hours at a time, and it would swap around between teams depending on the days, and times. Yes, we had a few months sometimes where one country would have more numbers (mostly rooks during RJO's, boy i "miss" those days with team work lol)...but generally, since ENY the balance has been relatively stable.

however the issue now, as Kev, Slapshot and i in other threads have mentioned is.... if you are loosing in 1 arena, you join arena 2. and if 1 arena is NEAR the cap, players cannot join to fix the issue.

Often i come on, and join LWblue, only to see knits with 20-30 more players. Id rather join Orange as I'm pretty sure knits would have 20-30 LESS in that arena, but its capped! I cant get in. Once when knits was 30 players less, in blue, i PM'ed a few "country men" in orange, and managed to pull about 15 players over..... and leveling the playing field, BUT not many players are like that, and with caps in there way how can they?

and, in the that other thread slapshot quoted from someone else posted the overall figures of the countries added up.... and it was something like 109-106-110...very balanced... However BOTH the LW's had terrible imbalance, one arena was a Bish arena, one was a Knit arena, and rooks was pretty even (they was on low side in both LW's, as they had more in EW/MW)

[FrodeMk3]

You guys all remember how the "old" MA used to go as far as the sides went, right?

     Back then, when you would see up to 650-almost 700 in the Main, You had the potential to be unbalanced...But it would be by a smaller percentage than it is now. Well, that was caused by a lot of things...sometimes, some of the squads would be on a country rotation, tour-to-tour, and they would throw it out of wack when 2-3 of them landed on the same country, in the same rotation. However, this would usually be for about 3-4 hours, not enough time to really make a difference in either the furballers' scheme of things, or the Victory crowd. It would usually be decided late at night in the U.S., during euro time.

     But now, you see more arena resets, because all of the arena's aren't just a little out of whack, they are alot out of whack, side-wise. And, in a comical way, I've seen people jump sides to make it even, but then, their friends/squaddies jump, then, your imbalanced the other way. this happened in LW1 not to long ago. And, since you can't immediately jump back to even it out, you now are stuck with another imbalance. It's like taking fine sand in a box, about half full, and trying to tilt it to get it even. It lumps on one end, and stays there. The only way to get it to balance out, is to take your hand and directly move it.

     I guess what our question is now, Is what can HTC use as a hand?

[FrodeMk3]

Ahh, and one more thing.                                                                                                                                                                                                                              

And think about this ... all that effort to "race for the reset" and pound the crap out of the weakest team for a measly 25 perks in each category and the realization that you just won a war that will start all over in 5 minutes.

 

I've always had the impression, Slap, that it was more to see who would have flaming rights on ch. 200. People take to this game as if they were playing in a team-oriented sport.