Race to the reset.

[MOIL]

Originally posted by Kweassa
Explanations

 The community has grown larger, and not all of its members hail from the "prestigious line" of old aerial sim veterans who joined the great venture into the world of aerial combat simulations at the dawn of personal computers and electronic gaming. This "line", has experienced almost all of the changes in the field from text-based simulations to the latest games up to date. It met it's highest peak during the days of Air Warrior, War Birds, and subsequently first Aces High. This line of vets were the original "geeks", when playing computer games was not considered as something a respectable grown man should do. They formed the first WW2 combat sim community that overlapped each different games upto a certain poinr - when you met some guy in AW, you'd see the same guy playing WB, then you'd see him playing AH or IL-2 nowadays.

 However, the advancement of technology in the field of computers have brought up games as a significant medium of entertainment. The market expands. Children nowadays consider games as the most favored form of play - "gaming" is now synonimous with "playing" for this new generation. We had young people playing baseball or basketball or soccer in the late 80's and early 90's. Nowadays they play computer games. This expansion in the gaming industry and market has brought into the world of WW2 simulation a significant "alien factor" which is unfamiliar to the "old line of vets" and their small community.

 This new element in the sim community still does have a common factor as the "vets" do - curiosity towards the history of the second World War, passion towards flight, the urge to experience aerial combat which so frequently depicted in variety of sources such as books or movies. However, despite the similarities, the motives and expectations they have for combat sims is totally different from the "vets" all together.

 The vets have more or less become accustomed to accepting the technical limitations in simulating aerial combat. Since there was no way to put up a big warring environment on-line at the beginning stages of on-line gaming, generally the thrill of aerial combat itself was all that mattered. The thrill of individual (or limited multiple) engagements was all they had and all that mattered. They loved enjoying the small aspect of it all- a handful few people, all good friends, locked in aerial combat flying historical planes. A very small, limited scale of depicting WW2 combat, but it was good enough for them.

 Because there was nothing else, people competed to become a good pilot. An EXCELLENT pilot, as a matter of fact. There was no such thing as a 'war' going on which they could influence.  Therefore, the spirit of competition and gaming fun was expressed through the only thing they could achieve while playing the archaic flight sims, packaged sims with limited multiplater capability, and the earliest on-line flight sims.

 However, the "aliens" - the younger, newer generation of gamers which now coexist with the "vets" in the sim community, come from a very different background; they are accustomed to computer gaming, the internet age opens when they are teens, computer games become more sophisticated and complex, and new horizons opened for all types of games to be able to depict and recreate things which they could not do so before.

 These "aliens" have totally different motives and aspirations when they see games like Aces High. They don't play it just for the fun of aerial combat itself - they play it because it is a total gaming experience, which at least loosely depicts the aspect of "war". Not only are they able to enhoy individual combat, they are also able top play a role in a larger scale which takes combined effort for many people to accomlish its final object.

 Simply put, it is indeed a "race to reset". They view it as nothing else. It is the ultimate goal and the ultimate fun factor. Their emphasis in competition is not set upon the individual pilot, but how each one's "country" does in the virtual environment. Frankly, not only is there nothing wrong with it, but also there is no way to stop it. It is an inevitable change as long as AH community grows.


Predictions

The "vets" are entering extinction. The "aliens" are breeding like rats. Sooner or later, the line of the old vets will be lost, and the aliens will replace the flight combat sim world. Unless AH goes retro about 10 years and kicks out everyone who doesn't agree with the "vets", this tendency will go on and on until; 1) AH finally restructures its entire strat system to better accomodate such changes while balancing out/refining the weaker points of its gameplay, or 2) a better game comes out which depicts WW2 strat in a much more fun way.

 There have been attempts at 2) - such as IL-2 series or WW2OL. However, problems in both of those games have prevented it from becoming the predominant game which would outclass AH. But it is only a matter of time until someone finally "gets it". While IL-2's limited MP capabilites is the single most limiting factor, its developers have recently announced aspirations to bring it up to the MMOG world. Whether this is only talk, or they are really planning on it is unknown. However, if there is any bit of amount of truth on it, then it'll become the largest threat to the survival of AH, ever.


Suggestions

 The "vets" must understand this tide of "aliens" is something that cannot be stopped. It is an irreversible process. Therefore, if they cannot stop it, then they should learn to enjoy it.

 Ofcourse, this implies that during the course of next five years or so, the MA format of Aces High must be changed. Many of the problems which persist in the MA that the "vets" view as unfavorable, is not necessarily associated with the "alien invasion".

 In other words, the reason the MA is not fun for many "vets", is not because there are too many "aliens" around. It is because the game failed to accomodate the "alien factor", which in turn corrupted the MA into an abnormal display of brute power, rather than becoming a more structured representation of a "generic, WW2-ish, war" which should in theory, still contain many of the fun factors which the "vets" hold on to so dearly.

 It is a failure of the outdated strat system which was never intended to accomodate the alienfolk that is accelerating discontent. As I have argued many times the AH strat system was by all intentions and means nothing much more than a simple "stage" which the "old vets" were meant to act on. They were nothing more than facades of a war which is comprised of a very simple component of territorial struggle -  you barge in with deadly force, capture the field, advance in territory, repeat ad nauseam, and you win.

 Consider the MA as a game of poker. The current MA is like people playing poker with an unlimited amount of money (or toy money, if you will). Because of this, the basics of playing a poker game is totally lost. People just raise and call stuff like hell. Bluffing doesn't work because the amount of money on the table is unlimited. People call wild shots, change cards in an illogical sequence, even counting the cards don't help. They don't think anything through. Who cares if they lose some money? The supply is unlimited.

 However, if the MA can be restructured so it can better depict a generic version of war based on the image of WW2, (albeit without limitations by nationality in planes or by era of their introduction) then the problems will stop. Internal logic of the strat mechanics, and strategical aspects will become the "leash" which does not exist in the current MA. Each players of all three countries will be bound and govered by (simulated) realities war that will ultimately prevent them from relying on pure brute force to win the war. Each of the battles competing for air superiority will become more important, player movement and mobilization will become limited, logistics will intervene, and therefore, every plane or pilot lost in the air will gain some sort of meaning.

 This means introducing real money in that game of chaotic poker. A new type of strat will ensure that. People can't just waste planes or flock to single places, go here and there at whim. There are now multiple factors to consider. And as soon as real money is put on the table, people start playing straight. All the subtle individual skills such as sharking or bluffing, card counting and stuff now works. The game becomes much more centered in winning with individual hands dealt.

 Fuel and ammo supplies. Logistics and road systems. Economic facilities and attrition. Limited number of planes (or pilots) for field. Structured organization. Concept of different 'airforces', each  taking charge of one of the two battle fronts a single country has. Introduction of ground forces. Changing the point of capture from individual fields to important economic/logistic points. Disallowing direct capture of ground targets by air forces alone. New radar systems.

 No, "vets".

 This does not make turn the game more "toolshed bustin' ".

 It turns the game into "bustin' toolsheds more carefully and critically, which requires gaining local airsuperiority with limited numbers of planes, pilots, and resources... which in turn, will emphasize on small~medium scaled localized air combat of roughly comparable number of opponents on both sides... which will bring back some of the thrill of individual air combat which the current MA has lost."

Pay attn folks;)

[stickpig]

You could implement all the changes you want, but as long as people have a certain agenda in the game, the outcome will always be the same.

Its not the game, changes etc, its how we play it.

people who want to capture undefended bases will, no matter what is implemented, people will pork undefended bases regardless

people will join the side with the most numbers if thats the way they like to play.

when it comes down to it, its not the game, changes etc its how we choose to play the game.

Just my thought..... "Flame suit now on"

[Flayed1]

Originally posted by E25280
Is football about blocking and tackling, or is it about scoring?

To some, the only "touchdown" in AH is the reset.  The rest is blocking and tackling.

Some don't take it quite that far and look at each base capture as a touchdown.  But the end of the game still doesn't occur unless the buzzer sounds -- again, that's the reset in AH.

Still others don't care if their team scores a touchdown or not, or wins or not, so long as they get to knock someone else on their behind in the process.

In imperfect analogy to be sure, but it will do.

 Sounds like a perfect comparason to me...   I only care for the touch down the rest while fun is just a bump in the road.


EDIT: The base captures are like the yard lines... reset is touchdown.

[Yknurd]

Flayed,

How is your kill to death ratio btw?

Just a question.

[bozon]

Originally posted by Hap
Resetting map, winning the war, my objective.  I've not switched countries for several years.  Good or bad, winning or losing, I fly the same side and try to help my country win and avoid losing.

I would believe it if people were trying to win the war. Most obviously don't and I'll explain.
Lets assume 3 countries:
A - strongest
B- medium
C - weakest

It makes sense for country A to attack country C if they want to "win the war".

BUT, why on earth do "win the war" guys in country B also attack the weakest C? they will bring a reset but they do not win. They just help A win.

Serious arena imbalance is when one country out weight the other two combined. This is a rare situation. However, in practice, since the B country "tool shedders" are not really playing to win the war, but just to mindlessly capture undefended bases - undefended not because of a great diversion plan, but just because there aren't enough defenders to go around. This is how they get their feeling of "achievement", not from winning the war, playing strategy or anything sophisticated.

This is why the smallest country is getting gangbanged.

[WMLute]

Originally posted by Flayed1
On the question of why do the base capture type players stop coming to a defended field and go to another for the capture, I would think this obvious....
  Side A attempts to capture field 1 but side B is ready and on the spot defefends and stops the capture.. Now this really becomes just a furball and most of the time it isn't worth trying to get an unarmed C47 to town because there are just to many red guys that would love to kill that goon. For guys that are playing the war game the furball is not productive.  So rather than have 10 goons get blown out of the air side A attempts to surprise side B on a different part of the map in hopes that they can take another base befor side B reacts in time to save it..  Hit the NME where they arn't ready for it.   Thats war.

THE BEST captures, the most satisfying anyway, comes from taking a field that is defended.

I guess this is where you and I differ.  I WANT there to be people defending it.  I WANT them to up.  Heck, I like it when the fight's roughly even on numbers.  When I am otw to attack a field and I hear that defenders are upping, typically my reply is "woot! this'll be fun!"

What ROCKS is when you BEAT them into subbmission.  THAT is the point that laz, and others have made about flying only in a hoard, and not learning how to actually fight.  If you fly with a hoard of 20 players, and 6 can't fight what so ever, 11 always die to the head on because that is all they know, and only 3 can fight, you don't stand a chance taking that field if say 7 or 8 defenders keep upping.  How sad is that?  I have seen it happen more times that I care to think about.  Huge group comes in, 1/2 or less their numbers decimate the hoard, hoard move on to undefended field.    

My squid will attack a field that has MORE defenders than attackers, beat them into submission, THEN capture it.

Granted, my way is harder, requires training, and much more effort and strategy.

BUT it's sooooooo much more satisflying when you finally take that sucker.

Takin' undefended field=boring.
Takin' defended field=fun.

Train your noobs.  Teach them how to actually FIGHT and KILL the nme instead of dying over and over and you too might someday be able to take a field w/o a huge number advantage.  I hope you get there.

It's not about strategy (i.e. win the war faster).  Quit kidding yourself.  It is about ability, or lack there of.

(gosh, am I being too harsh here?)

[Flayed1]

Originally posted by Yknurd
Flayed,

How is your kill to death ratio btw?

Just a question.

  The question is do I really care??      I fail to see how this has any thing to do with this thread.

  And if it isn't all that good it just shows I'm not hanging over some base vulching.



  EDIT:  You did make me curious as I have not looked at my score for so long....  Ummm better than yours.

[thndregg]

Originally posted by Yknurd
Flayed,

How is your kill to death ratio btw?

Just a question.

Sounds like a question my smartprettythang 11-year-old "know-it-all" (in need of a Drill Instructor) nephew would ask.

[lazs2]

After reading kwessas post I would say that it reads well but is entirely based on one false premis...

the premis being that kids today aren't as good as kids were in "our" generation.

That is bull.   kwe makes the point that because they were brought up with online games with a goal of winning more complicated... what?  complicated whatever...  that they are incapable of enjoying the thrill of combat for combats sake.   this is a basic flaw in his reasoning...

The first person shooters and such may be more "win the goal" oriented but I am sure that many who play still see the games for their individual effort.

And why are the toolshedders here in AH?   the strat?  the win?   LOL... tic tac toe is more complex....  and... if you have to use a pen... probly takes more dexterity than flying in a whorde...

Nope... I would say that we simply attracted a large number of people who have no interest in flight sims... they aren't here for "Aces High" they are here for capture the flag.   They like it here because they can pick the winning side.

We have whole squads that drive vehicles or have wings of 3 or more with 90 players... ones that like to link up to milkrun...  

What also perpetuates it is the reward for such behavior...  and... I have actualy heard/read that these squads think they are "respected" as a whorde or gv squad!  The real emotion is sadness or disgust from those who like combat flight sims.

We can go two ways... we can make the strat more complex or more layered (to where you can participate or not) big cities... airfields not a target etc... This would allow people who like big overall goals to have fun and get rid of the griefers and lazy kids if the stat and tools were difficult enough..

or.. we could make it even more oriented to the begginer... easy mode flight and even easier chances for guys with no talent at all to "have an effect"

The problem with the former is that if you made it tougher for a bomber say...  or if GV's were more realistic... you would up the learning curve to the level of the fighters and most of the begginers would leave...not being able to 'accomplish" anything... or, face it... to be noticed.  If it were done well...  the dedicated win the war types would master the learning curve and the fighter guys would be left to the fighter sweeps and such.

The latter would probly attract more players at first (like now) but... there would be even worse animosity when everyone was a potential griefer in every area every time they got on.... there would be no "vets" past about a year...

Every time you make it harder to grief or to milkrun you will lose the new players and the griefers and tic tac toe set....

Every time you make it easier for the griefers and new people to "have an effect" on the game you will lose the flight sim people.

I don't think this generation is worse than any other.... I just think that we got an influx of the worst it has to offer... the ones no one else wanted or allowed to have their own way.

lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's

[Flayed1]

Soooo are you saying that you would like to see the game modified so that it was more complex so it would be more difficult for bomber guys???

 If so we finally agree on something.

[Squire]

"Nope... I would say that we simply attracted a large number of people who have no interest in flight sims... they aren't here for "Aces High" they are here for capture the flag."

I think there is some truth in that, and although thats not true with all the players, is is true for too many.

[lazs2]

well... glad you both can see my point to a certain extent..

flayed... your agreeing with me doesn't help tho.. if you make the strat more interesting and more layered and more complex you up the learning curve and after a two week trial of nobody noticeing them... the squeaky voices and griefers will walk away looking for some other online game to get noticed in.  

They aren't interested in what kind of game it is...  they just want one where the rules are lax enough that they can game the game... sadly... some of the older more experianced guys are looking for this too.. they want to be the hero of a whole group of squeaky voices by gaming squad limits and such...

Lopsided sides with no side balancing... a griefers dream in a combat game... The ability to choose the best tools in the game while others are dumb enough to not?   griefer paradise... HO's and spits and lalas and milkrunning and gangbanging...  why not?

Make it harder and they leave.   make it easier and they are even more obnoxious and numerous.

It's a tough call but to fix it you would have to have more rules like other games... side balancing... no matter if your father flew for the dildo shaped icon or not.... the roster of em is full.... you don't get to wear the dildo hat in that arena.... sorry....

More evenly matched planesets.... not even by year maybe but by performance..... Sorry... you don't get to have a plane 40 mph faster than the slowest fighter in that arena....

That sort of thing... the things that would make a lot of people leave too...

I am sure glad that I don't have to figure out how to keep and get new customers and still make for a game that holds the interest of old customers.

lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's

[Laurie]

Forcing guys to fly other countries than there usaul isnt fair, agree or not. the whole countries system would become boring and stagnant channel 200 keeps this game alive atm. you might aswell fly all vs. all. would become piontless, and so would sqauds, as there would be no guarentee of them being on same country, let alone being on same arena.
forcing ppl to join countries aint the answer, its just a quik bodge.

[Yknurd]

Originally posted by Flayed1
The question is do I really care??      I fail to see how this has any thing to do with this thread.

  And if it isn't all that good it just shows I'm not hanging over some base vulching.



  EDIT:  You did make me curious as I have not looked at my score for so long....  Ummm better than yours.

LOL, it wasn't my intent to infer you were vulching (which I do not disagree with) or that one of use was better than the other.

I think your kill to death ratio might have possible act as a qualifier to your statements.  If were to have no kills, a few deaths, but a lot of crashes then I would expect you to be a member of the Undefended Base Acquisitions group.

Just wanted to try to understand where you were coming from.

[Shuffler]

Flight??? I thought this was a racing sim