WTG No Knock

[bsdaddict]

if anyone is really interested in the issues surrounding this case, Radley Balko has been covering the details as they become evident.  His blog is http://www.theagitator.com/  I realize some of you will write this off because of the name of his blog, so be it.  If your mind's already made up then don't bother.

[x0847Marine]

Originally posted by lazs2
who cares?

you surround the house and You plug the sewer and you knock on the frigging door.  

If that don't work you use a bullhorn and you announce that if no one opens the door you will break it down because you have a warrant to search.

lazs

You knowledge of police training, resources and tactics is stunningly ignorant.

[lazs2]

perhaps it is the police tactics that are ignorant.

lazs

[Mightytboy]

So the cops should not have returned fire?

Just because the informant was wrong does not mean that the cops did anything wrong. They got a judge to give them a warrant and they went in to make an arrest.

I did not read anywhere where they never announced themselfs just that they never knocked.

Sad story for sure but not something that warrants a "WTG Amerika!!!!".

[bsdaddict]

Originally posted by x0847Marine
You knowledge of police training, resources and tactics is stunningly ignorant.

I realize that wasn't directed at me, but if it were my reply would be:

that may be so, but my understanding of the concepts of "the right to self-defense" and "innocent until proven guilty" is spot on.

[Charon]

A search warrant only needs probable cause, we required 2 controlled buys to paper a drug house... but 1 is enough. "Beyond reasonable doubt" is not relevant to a search warrant, only in finding guilt or innocence at trail. And unless you have read their investigation, I'm not sure how you can comment on its quality based on a media report.

Personally, I think that if you use a paramilitary police unit to perform a no knock violent entry search with hair trigger fingers -- perhaps you should set a higher standard. I didn't really believe that any of this was "illegal" per se or far outside the norm. It's the "norm" that causes me problems. That and the wasted War on Drugs that leads to an erosion of our rights "for the common good" in the first place.

Again, I don't particularly blame the grunt officer on the ground (with some exceptions that go beyond just making a "bad call") I blame the environment where such searches are being conducted casually through the use of paramilitary police units that were initially developed to handle already deadly violent situations in progress or individuals with a history of violence where there is substantial risk. Even if Granny's grandson was using her house to occasionally deal drugs -- you would hope he was some Tony Montana to rate this level of response.

No Knock amplifies the chance of accidental fatalities. From the Cato site, even drug dealers who might peacably surrender sometimes fail to realize who's crashing in the door given that it might be other gangbangers looking to rob or settle a score.

And paramilitary operations can only increase the chance of an accidental police shooting, IMO, whether the target of the raid is guilty or innocent. The "make one flinch and I'll pop you" mindset that has to be instilled in such training. Like the Marines in Iraq that shot those three wounded insurgents in the Fallujah operation a while back. It was the wrong call, perhaps, but not a BAD call when your training focuses on threat elimination and survival and where if you hesitate even 1 second you might be dead along with your buddies.

These forces are a hammer -- but not every situation is a nail.

Charon

[Chairboy]

Charon & Lazs2 are spot on, in my opinion, especially Charon's hammer/nail analogy.

[Debonair]

i think the pizza delivery guy should have the power to do these kind of forced no-knock entries & make you eat pizza

[x0847Marine]

Originally posted by lazs2
perhaps it is the police tactics that are ignorant.

lazs

Check out case law on chain of evidence and "common pipes" relating to apartments, "blocking the drains", although not a real tactic, is covered there... thats more of a TV thing than reality. If its a location without common pipes, we shut off the water.. not block the pipes.

And its clear you've never once been to a ghetto dope haven apt complex where you find medicine cabinets / posters / framed pictures that are open holes to the apartment next door.. announce "we're here" and in less than a min the bag of dope will be 3 apartments over before some 10 year old kid rides off with it in a backpack waiving "hi po-lice" at the police cars.

Or you might see a dog haul bellybutton out the back window wearing a diggie back pack, trained to run 2 miles through houses, under fences to a safe house. Ever seen the "poof" of dope hitting an industrial fan?... try collecting it after that.

Dope dealers have refined their profession too, they have a dozen ways they are ready to make the evidence vanish in a split second which is why "no knock" warrants exist.

Police tactics have been molded by years of experience, case law, Dept policy, and FBI training you cannot possibly begin to imagine. Let the professionals handle the police work... and if you think you can be part of the 3% that get hired, go for it.. then you can ignore case law, policy, tactics and whatever rules you dont like and re-train everyone your way.

[x0847Marine]

Originally posted by bsdaddict
I realize that wasn't directed at me, but if it were my reply would be:

that may be so, but my understanding of the concepts of "the right to self-defense" and "innocent until proven guilty" is spot on.

Spot on regarding what?, a search warrant? these terms DO NOT APPLY at the time the warrant is served... thats just the way it goes. The judge signing the warrant isnt concerned with the persons guilt, only that's there's enough PC.

"Innocent until proven guilty" is reserved for trial, the "right to self-defense" may or may not apply later in some court somewhere after the facts are known. Some civil jury might decide she acted properly and was defending herself, its happened before.

This warrant is business as usual..  but I get the anger at the .gov breaking into a house, but its not a big deal at face value.

Thats not to say how things really went down behind closed doors, I know there are shady cops with CIs so desperate for cash they'll swear to meeting Elvis, and drunk judges who sign warrants they can barely read at 3am... not that I have personal knowledge of such things... that's the scary part to be worried about.

And if that type of thing went down in this case, someone should go to Club Fed... but it wont change the system, the rights you think you have... are long gone thanks to the  republican / democrat controlled .gov, the cops are just using, possibly abusing, the tools given to them.

[Charon]

Sad story for sure but not something that warrants a "WTG Amerika!!!!"

We're on that path, and this is a milestone event in the process of the incremental slide pushed by both parties. Of course the real milestone was the court decision, and this just illustrates the point. Many citizens -- conservatives and liberals, democrats and republican sadly fail to appreciate just how powerful and unique our freedoms are as set in the Bill of Rights. Safety and security concerns (overblown for the most part) driven by fear mongering and the fact that "Well I have nothing to hide…" and that the latest episode of American Idol is on the tube so who really cares plays into the hands of politicians looking for power and control at our expense.

Clinton hacked away at the 4th and 2nd to get “tough on crime.” Bush at the 4th and perhaps 5th, 6th and 7th (and, at the end of the day, I wouldn't put the 2nd beyond his reach) to “save us from the terrorists.” The 10th is free game and has been since the beginning. Current and future politicians are already priming to take on he 1st "to protect the children from Internet predators" and to save us from “terrorist communications networks.”

Freedom is not easy, it's messy and criminals and terrorist sometimes can take advantage of that. Politicians and prosecutors don't much like all this freedom. But, the alternative is not one that I even remotely want to explore. Hell, give us a decade or two and before you know it we’ve become a kinder, gentler People’s Republic of China. A strong capitalist economy with all of the “appropriate” individual freedoms we are allowed by the government.

Here's some spin for ya. If she didn't have that gun, she wouldn't have been shot.

I live in a state where my personal, direct, individual 4th and 2nd Amendment Rights are under regular attack. It's a reality for me. It's not even ****ing incremental here. As a firearm owner I'm already dangerously close to being an outlaw in this state, largely in my county and fully in the City of Chicago if I still lived there. The whole "If you have nothing to hide" thing only really works as long as the ground rules for the "nothing" part stay the same. But that is a moving target.

Charon

[DREDIOCK]

Im surprised the story about the to be groom getting shot to death, his two passengers shot and wounded and his car shot up  after leaving a strip joint for his bachelor party didnt make news here




Groom Shooting

"One 12-year veteran fired his weapon 31 times, emptying two full magazines"


Dont know if it was a just shooting. And for all I know may very well have been but
Seems kinda dangerous to me.
For potential bystanders

[Dago]

Originally posted by Charon
Filed under: Hey, if you have nothing to hide...

This poor 88-year-old woman just found out the hard way that the Bill of Rights is there for a purpose. Too bad our legislators and jurists seem to have a hard time with the concept.



Doesn't really sound like the police developed much of a case. An informant apparently "claimed" that he bought a couple of bags of crack from a "Sam" at the residence. I guess you don't need more than some street hood's claim before they kick down your door. No in-depth investigation, no "beyond a reasonable doubt," no "iron clad case" -- just violent search on rumor.


WTG Amerika!!!!

Charon

Welcome to last week.

[Charon]

Welcome to last week.

I don't recall seeing a link. I waited to post until now because I wanted a few more details to surface, which they did today.

Charon

[x0847Marine]

Originally posted by Charon
Many citizens -- conservatives and liberals, democrats and republican sadly fail to appreciate just how powerful and unique our freedoms are as set in the Bill of Rights.  

All it takes to legally break into your house, my house, HTs office, your moms house.. the word of A CI re-characterized by a sworn officer signed by a judge. Or just the observations of a sworn officer signed by a judge.

There is no oversight, the suspect has zero opportunity to challenge the facts until after the warrant is served.. if the warrant is 'quashed', all thats lost is any evidence.. the fact the cops broke down your door & trashed your house is water under the bridge; file a complaint or hire a civil attorney.

Also something called "exigent circumstances", which if you look at case law can be very very thin.. it got this way thanks to the elected lawmakers, the ones who crow about "being tough on crime".. which is just a euphemism for eroding everyone's rights to target a select few.

Once the law makers give cops tools & toys... the cat is out of the bag, together with clever lawyers in the DAs office, cops will push the limits, and create new ones via case law, then use / abuse said tool in ways stupid lawmakers who authored the poorly worded law never imagined.

Poop rolls downhill; stupid lawmaker writes poorly wordrd law to target drug dealers, then cops / DAs find clever ways to use it on everyone and anyone.

So if y'all want... get pissed at the cops, Monday morning AM their tactics, piss'n moan all day about how ninja they are... they are dudes just like you and I doing a job using tools elected officials handed them on a silver platter... tools that end up inserted in the anus of regular folks... but this is nothing new really, it was like this when I started in 1990.