WTG No Knock

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by Chairboy
Ack-Ack, ByeBye, you guys are terrorists for believing there's anything wrong with that.  Just ask Capt Virgil Hits, I'm sure he'll tell you that those people might have been innocent of what the WARRANTS said, but they were probably guilty of SOMETHING!

If an officer does something, it _becomes_ the law.  Haven't you been listening?

You know, that's REALLY STUPID. I never said any such thing. Not even close. Now did I?

Let's see you twist, spin, turn and plain lie your way out of this one hot shot.

You said something I never said, not even close, and you don't know what my thoughts on the matter are.

The plain fact is, if you could READ instead of run your mouth and make ASSumptions, I never came down on either side.

There have been major screw ups made, besides the mistake you made being so stupid and arrogant as to make ignorant statements about what you THINK my thoughts on the matter are.

It seems that a judge, and several police officers made major errors, and not just in the most recent case. Not knowing ALL the facts, I'm neither stupid enough, nor arrogant enough, to make a decision on this case or any other as to who made what errors where and when, before I know the facts.

[Suave]

"Today we sent a strong message to freedom hating grandmothers everywhere."

[ByeBye]

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts

It seems that a judge, and several police officers made major errors, and not just in the most recent case. Not knowing ALL the facts, I'm neither stupid enough, nor arrogant enough, to make a decision on this case or any other as to who made what errors where and when, before I know the facts.

The fact is that an innocent 88 year old woman had her house invaded, and she defended herself.

[ByeBye]

And how much money or effort would it have cost if the police had knocked first?

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by ByeBye
The fact is that an innocent 88 year old woman had her house invaded, and she defended herself.

That is ONE fact. The word facts, note the letter "s" on the end, is PLURAL. The ONE fact means a tragedy has happened, through a series of mistakes. The ONE fact does not tell the whole story. Unlike people here who like to get their exercise jumping to conclusions, I like to know the whole story before I reach a conclusion. Especially when it comes to something like this.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by ByeBye
And how much money or effort would it have cost if the police had knocked first?

An innocent woman is dead, and some police officers are wounded. She's not coming back, and they have to live with what they did. They may pay a very high price, and if they deserve to, then so be it. So I don't think money, effort, or cost are in question here.

[ByeBye]

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
An innocent woman is dead, and some police officers are wounded. She's not coming back, and they have to live with what they did. They may pay a very high price, and if they deserve to, then so be it. So I don't think money, effort, or cost are in question here.

Sure it is. The police could have made an effort to enter the house in any number of ways, other than the method they chose.  

The police should never enter a residence without first giving warning.

[Mace2004]

Well, I hate to say that there are some that I agree with in this thread when I think these types of raids are overdone....although I completely disagree with the psychotic paranoia about the Gestapo and Amerika.  

The problem that I see is that nobody's perfect, including the cops.  I worked in "professional" aviation for 24 years.  My buddies and I had the best training the taxpayer could provide, yet there were still guys I flew with that I wouldn't trust with a rusty spoon because of their lack of judgement.  So, a professional force is a good thing, but it is not a guarantee of infallibility.

I had a plane captain that accidentally stepped over a "red line" at Nellis AFB in the middle of a six-plane launch, in daytime, while doing final checks on my plane.  It was perfectly obvious what my PC was doing and why but within about 20 seconds a USAF "Air Police" gentleman had my guy flat on his face on the concrete, hands cuffed, and was standing over him pressing a loaded  M16 into the small of his back.  Now I don't have problems with cops (or security forces) doing their jobs and, technically the cop was "following procedure", but you can not excuse poor judgement.  

There is no doubt in my mind that the vast majority of police have the best intentions; however, using such insignificant and questionable information as has become common in making such a raid, knowing full well the perspective and potential reaction of unknowing and innocent occupants is tantamount to setting the conditions for a mishap.  Just as the USAF guy could have had an accidental discharge really ruin my PCs day these no-knock raids are tailor made for a bad outcome and, in many many cases for similar piss-poor reasons.  Sure the cops (and the USAF guy) would surely claim that whatever went wrong was just an "accident" and they would most assuredly believe this but they are the ones to set the conditions that made such an "accident" likely if not completely predictable.  All they really need to do is think about how they would react if the situation were reversed.  I sincerely doubt there is a single cop who's first thought and reaction would not be to take action in self-defense.

Some can excuse this lack of judgement because of a poorly written law or a not-so-intelligent judge but the bottom line is the police are the one's that must make the decision to do this type of raid.  We must also remember that this is a life-and-death situation and should be treated as more than a John Wayne attack on this countries bad-guys.  If you were to make a similarly bad judgement call, a call that could reasonably be expected to result in death or injury you'd be facing at least manslaughter charges.  Should this not be the same for law-enforcement malpractice that results in the same thing?

[Sixpence]

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Not knowing ALL the facts, I'm neither stupid enough, nor arrogant enough, to make a decision on this case or any other as to who made what errors where and when, before I know the facts.

Well, if not the case, how about the procedure or protocol?

Fact: They are breaking into a strangers home in the middle of the night

Fact: People carry guns to protect themselves from intruders in their home, especially in the middle of the night.

Fact: People are allowed to and do shoot people who break into their home in the middle of the night.

Fact: If, while invading said home, any person reaches for a gun or is perceived to be reaching for a gun, they will be fired upon.

This is provoking a firefight, period. Because if you have a warrant and are invading a home in the middle of the night, chances are they will be armed. And chances are any innocent civilian will be armed and think he is being attacked.

If there is a gun in the home, civilian or bad guy, and you are breaking in @ 3:00AM, you can expect them to use that gun.

How is this a safer way to do things? How does it make it safer for the cops and civilians?

Especially if the source is scum from the street?

And the civilian, once he has his gun and is looking for the intruder, he's a dead man, he hasn't got a chance.

How can you defend or justify this?

I always thought the object was to get the job done without conflict, not provoke it.

And the cops, look at what they just went through. That poor cop has to go home, look at his kids, think of their grandmother, how much they love her and live with the guilt of what happened.

edit: didn't see Mace's post, but I think it pretty much says the same about the way the raids are done

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

I did not defend or justify anything. Jeez, how hard is that to grasp? I didn't make ANY judgement, other than to say it was a major screw up and a civilian paid with her life, and the cops who did it will have to live with that, and they may even pay a very high price for it, and if they deserve to, then so be it. How in the Hell people read that as defending or justifying something I just can't figure. I guess if you don't call for the cops to be taken out on the freakin street in front of her house and shot in the back of the head, then you're justifying their actions. At least in the eyes of some seriously myopic people here.

Yes, for crying out loud, there is a serious need for reform in the system. There is also a need for BALANCE, and MODERATION. You cannot eliminate no knock warrants and expect to catch professional criminals. Nor can you serve every warrant between the hours of 9AM and 4PM  in broad daylight with bull horns, lights, and sirens. However, you can seriously restrict the issuing of such warrants, only allowing them with a great deal more pre issue investigation and much higher level of justification.

In this case, no warrant of any kind should have ever been issued. This was a tragic screw up from the word go. No one should have even asked the judge for a warrant, and the judge should never have issued one. The whole thing was a series of errors that would embarass the Keystone cops. There were enough policy errors and judgement errors to fill a small novel. However, that does not serve as an indictment of every officer on every force in the country, nor does it make them "nazis" as was so quaintly stated.

[lazs2]

xmarine.. you claim you know the complexity of sewer lateral systems.

I have 20 years in the pipefitting and wastewater distribution system business..  I currently am in charge of wastewater treatment and distribution.

This was not an appartment or anything else... any city large enough to have a paramilitary ninja outfit is large enough to have a cleanout law...

you ignorance of building laterals is showing.

The police range is on my plants property... I watch police and sheriffs and DA and dea and swat and atf all train.

The paramilitary guys are decent one on one but are filled with more a holes than you can shake a stick at.. they are isolated and arrogant and cut off from fellow cops and citizens..  they have an adversarial attitude and elitist attitude that is not warranted... they are constantly compensating for the fact that they are doing a job no one needs.. this goes for the ATF and DEA guys too.

They fight to keep the regular police from having rifles and carbines so that they are forced to call the worthless swat out to solve any problem.

They are insecure and defensive and it shows..   they are killing people because they are trained to kill citizens.

They killed a grandma because their tactics invaded a home for the sole purpose of a drug bust.   They killed a citizen in her own home who fought back against armed thugs breaking into her home.  

At this point my only advise for homeowners is to shoot for the head or use a high powered rifle with full metal jacket or armor piercing rounds.

We should not fear that someone will break into our house in the middle of the night but we should certainly not fear that our employees.. those paid by us to protect us.. will be the thugs.

That should not happen... I would rather see 1,000 drug dealers let go than one citizen killed by the secret police ninjas attacking homes in the middle of the night.

lazs

[TheDudeDVant]

Amen Lazs

[MotorOil1]

I use to do this for a living so here's how it works.

A superior comes up hands you your orders, you will raid this house at this time and you're looking for this.  You don't question the orders because he's your superior and he's given you a hundred orders just like it before.  

You go to the house without a bull horn, unannounced, knock in the door while yelling at the occupants identifying yourself as police.  Depending on the raid, you and your team could be clearly marked in several positions indicating you are police (typically a residential area).  Once you encounter an individual you have a split second assess the situation, announce who you are again, tell the individual what you want them to do.  Or if the situation is hostile you screw all that and shoot before they shoot you.  

All the above is irrelevant if the resident(s) are disoriented (possibly elderly) or strung out at the time of the assault.  Guilty or innocent they will defend themselves given the means.  Once you knock in the door you are at a point of no return.  Once shooting begins, training takes over and you do what the situation dictates.

Given 3 officers were wounded by an elderly lady suggests there was some hesitation by the police.  Once the shooting begins it doesn't matter because at that point it's her or them and like I said, training takes over.  You always assume the individuals in the home being raided could be hostile.  We'll never know the finer details of what happened.

If there was a mistake made, it was on the intelligence used to decide to raid the home. (Iraq)

[FiLtH]

They need better intel and tactics before doing it. That lady could have been deaf.  There are better ways to go about this stuff than dessing up in para-military outfits with bloused boots thinking they are gods, raiding houses that may belong to innocents. A part of me is happy she whacked 3 of them before she went down.

[Viking]

For once I agree with Lazs. If that was my grandma I'd want those cops dead.