Author Topic: Obama and the patriot act..  (Read 1563 times)

Offline Mace2004

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Obama and the patriot act..
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2007, 06:45:45 PM »
Perhaps it's you guys that should read a little closer.  Nowhere did I defend what McCarthy said or did.  I merely pointed out that, while this may be an inconvienient fact, he was in fact correct about communist sympathisers and spies working within the US and the US government.  That's not really a point you can dispute.

What I did explain, and quite clearly I believe, is that McCarthy is nothing now but a "boogyman" meant to scare the uninformed and ignorant.  The same thing is being done when people claim GW is Hitler or politicians claim that a certain other party wants to throw old people out on the street or force them to eat dog food.  Say what you will regarding McCarthy, he was actually more right than those making either of these other two claims.
Mace
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Offline DREDIOCK

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Obama and the patriot act..
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2007, 07:03:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mace2004
Yeah, sort of like Gate is appended to anything that liberals or the press want to assign pre-judged negative connotations to in an effort to win in the court of public opinion before any actual facts come out.  Instead of actually looking at the facts just run around screaming McCarthyism or XXXXgate, or Nazi and don't worry about having to have an actual intelligent discussion.  There's lots of this sort of "shorthand" we could use.  Why don't we use "Leahyism" to denote the leaking of classified documents by members of Congress or "Clintonism" to denote taking advantage of young interns or "Jessie Jacksonism" to denote race baiting and extortion?  Sounds like they might want to add some more class days.



Ba,a,a,a,aa

Become actually intelligent and I'll be happy to have that type of discussion with you;)

Based on your whines of shorthand exclusions Its a pretty safe bet your upset because Im picking on a republican:rolleyes:

Before you go down that road. I have always maintained I remain loyal to nor do I have any party affiliation.
If you follow my posts you will see I have agreed with  disagreed with,and infuriated each side of the isle depending on subject matter.

See I am not a party sheep willing to mindlessly follow whatever line of crap any party gives me.

I've picked on both sides of the isle and will continue to do so. So long as they are primarily made up of robots, sheep and brain dead idiots.

I chose McCarthyism because it most accurately describes what we are potentially looking at.

when and if the subject matter most closely represents any of the shorthand you describe. I assure I you I will have no problem applying it regardless of whatever party it is applied to
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Offline Black Sheep

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Obama and the patriot act..
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2007, 07:20:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DREDIOCK


I chose McCarthyism because it most accurately describes what we are potentially looking at.

 


Not really. But it IS one way to put it.

Offline Hap

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Obama and the patriot act..
« Reply #33 on: February 12, 2007, 01:22:37 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mace2004
Perhaps it's you guys that should read a little closer.  Nowhere did I defend what McCarthy said or did.  I merely pointed out that, while this may be an inconvienient fact, he was in fact correct about communist sympathisers and spies working within the US and the US government.


The problem lies in a lack of discrimination.

Spies working at government jobs (or any spies I suppose) would be guilty of treason.

One who Sympathizes with communists would be guility of . . . well nothing.

Of course, my ingnorance of Cold War history may be lacking there.  I'm unaware that being a Red was against the law of our land.

Regards,

hap

Offline Mace2004

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Obama and the patriot act..
« Reply #34 on: February 12, 2007, 06:13:37 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Hap
The problem lies in a lack of discrimination.

Spies working at government jobs (or any spies I suppose) would be guilty of treason.

One who Sympathizes with communists would be guility of . . . well nothing.

Of course, my ingnorance of Cold War history may be lacking there.  I'm unaware that being a Red was against the law of our land.

Regards,

hap


So, again where is my statement wrong or incorrect?
Mace
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Offline wrag

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Obama and the patriot act..
« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2007, 08:01:48 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by bsdaddict
I've mentioned this before but noone seemed to notice.  anyhoo, Ron Paul is running.  He's an R, but I'll vote for him if he makes it past the primary.  Ron Paul ("Dr. No" to some, 'cause he votes "no" so often) would undo a lot of damage, IMHO.  He's got principles (the Constitution is #1 concern to him) and he stands by them, which is a quality sorely lacking in Washington these days...

http://www.house.gov/paul/index.shtml

http://ronpaulforcongress.com/   (still in "exploratory phase" for POTUS in'08)



YEP!

Been reading stuff this guy writes for a long time now.

Sadly, the public vote could put him in by a landslide!  But I doubt that the politicians would agree.

But if he makes it he HAS MY VOTE!
It's been said we have three brains, one cobbled on top of the next. The stem is first, the reptilian brain; then the mammalian cerebellum; finally the over developed cerebral cortex.  They don't work together in awfully good harmony - hence ax murders, mobs, and socialism.

Offline wrag

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Re: Re: Obama and the patriot act..
« Reply #36 on: February 12, 2007, 08:14:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by E25280
1)  I fear nothing in the PATRIOT Act regardless of who is at the helm.

2)  We never needed a warrant for spying on a foreign power.  Still don't.

3)  As a US Citizen not involved in hostilities against the US, the chances of me or anyone like me being "incarcerated without representation" are nil.

4)  These are not "Bush goodies" as you like to call them.  PATRIOT was written into law by the congress.  The rest are, to my understanding, powers given to the executive by the founders as written into the constitution.

So, what is your beef with Obama?


I'm thinkin someone hasn't actually read the Patriot Act.


Item 1,

"Dangerous laws created by well intentioned people today can be used by dangerous people with evil intentions tomorrow." - Alan Eppers


Item 2,

“There is in all of us a strong disposition to believe that anything lawful is also legitimate. This belief is so widespread that many persons have erroneously held that things are ‘just’ because the law makes them so.” —Frederic Bastiat


Item 3,

 you really believe that??????????????????????

"The greater the power, the more dangerous the abuse." -- Edmund Burke,
political philosopher (1729-1797)

"This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector." -- Plato, Greek philosopher (427-_347 BC

Item 4,

 I agree!  Klinton wanted that act passed while he was pres.  Rep screamed about Rights then when Boosh got in they passed it.



IMHO...........

“the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country." Hermann Goering in his cell on the evening of 18 April 1946

"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters." —Daniel Webster


and to finish off..........

We lost many of our rights when we asked government to control
our neighbors for our benefit -- or simply looked the other way when others did
so.

What government can do to our neighbor, it can -- and will -- do to us. Freedom is something that we must give to others if we wish it for ourselves.
It's been said we have three brains, one cobbled on top of the next. The stem is first, the reptilian brain; then the mammalian cerebellum; finally the over developed cerebral cortex.  They don't work together in awfully good harmony - hence ax murders, mobs, and socialism.

Offline bsdaddict

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Obama and the patriot act..
« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2007, 09:51:23 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mace2004
So, again where is my statement wrong or incorrect?

your comment wasn't factually incorrect, it was irrelevant.

Offline Red Tail 444

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Obama and the patriot act..
« Reply #38 on: February 12, 2007, 11:34:49 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by dmf
The only reason George Washington didn't screw up what teh president before him did is that there was no president before him, otherwise he'd have screwed it up.


John Hanson, first US President:

George Washington was really the 8th President of the United States! The only question is who the other seven were.

George Washington was not the first President of the United States. In fact, the first President of the United States was one John Hanson.john hanson was the first president of the article of confederation and that document was made before the constitution and George washington was the first president of the constitution.

The new country was actually formed on March 1, 1781 with the adoption of The Articles of Confederation. This document was actually proposed on June 11, 1776, but not agreed upon by Congress until November 15, 1777. Maryland refused to sign this document until Virginia and New York ceded their western lands (Maryland was afraid that these states would gain too much power in the new government from such large amounts of land).

Once the signing took place in 1781, a President was needed to run the country. John Hanson was chosen unanimously by Congress (which included George Washington). In fact, all the other potential candidates refused to run against him, as he was a major player in the revolution and an extremely influential member of Congress.

As the first President, Hanson had quite the shoes to fill. No one had ever been President and the role was poorly defined. His actions in office would set precedent for all future Presidents.

He took office just as the Revolutionary War ended. Almost immediately, the troops demanded to be paid. As would be expected after any long war, there were no funds to meet the salaries. As a result, the soldiers threatened to overthrow the new government and put Washington on the throne as a monarch.

All the members of Congress ran for their lives, leaving Hanson as the only guy left running the government. He somehow managed to calm the troops down and hold the country together. If he had failed, the government would have fallen almost immediately and everyone would have been bowing to King Washington. In fact, Hanson sent 800 pounds of sterling siliver by his brother Samuel Hanson to George Washington to provide the troops with shoes.

Hanson, as President, ordered all foreign troops off American soil, as well as the removal of all foreign flags. This was quite the feat, considering the fact that so many European countries had a stake in the United States since the days following Columbus.

Hanson established the Great Seal of the United States, which all Presidents have since been required to use on all official documents.

President Hanson also established the first Treasury Department, the first Secretary of War, and the first Foreign Affairs Department.

Lastly, he declared that the fourth Thursday of every November was to be Thanksgiving Day, which is still true today.

The Articles of Confederation only allowed a President to serve a one year term during any three year period, so Hanson actually accomplished quite a bit in such little time.

Six other presidents were elected after him - Elias Boudinot (1783), Thomas Mifflin (1784), Richard Henry Lee (1785), Nathan Gorman (1786), Arthur St. Clair (1787), and Cyrus Griffin (1788) - all prior to Washington taking office.

So what happened?

Why don't we ever hear about the first seven Presidents of the United States?

It's quite simple - The Articles of Confederation didn't work well. The individual states had too much power and nothing could be agreed upon.

A new doctrine needed to be written - something we know as the Constitution.

And that leads us to the end of our story.

George Washington was definitely not the first President of the United States. He was the first President of the United States under the Constitution we follow today.

And the first seven Presidents are forgotten in history.

Offline Hap

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Re: Re: Re: Obama and the patriot act..
« Reply #39 on: February 12, 2007, 02:20:17 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by wrag
I'm thinkin someone hasn't actually read the Patriot Act.


Wrag,

I'm schocked :O

Do you mean to say there's people who will post on this O'Club board without attempting to become well versed on a topic and who have nothing substantive to offer????


Horrors!!!

All the Best,

hap

Offline Mace2004

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Obama and the patriot act..
« Reply #40 on: February 12, 2007, 03:28:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bsdaddict
your comment wasn't factually incorrect, it was irrelevant.


And your response is?
Mace
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Offline bsdaddict

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Obama and the patriot act..
« Reply #41 on: February 12, 2007, 03:43:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mace2004
And your response is?

how old are you, 12?  You're like a little kid, saying "I know you are, but what am I?"  

sorry, but I won't be able to hear your witty reply, you're now ignored.  go troll someone else.

Offline Mace2004

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Obama and the patriot act..
« Reply #42 on: February 12, 2007, 04:57:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by bsdaddict
how old are you, 12?  You're like a little kid, saying "I know you are, but what am I?"  

sorry, but I won't be able to hear your witty reply, you're now ignored.  go troll someone else.


Didn't think you'd have a decent answer.
Need to learn to control that anger a bit sport.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2007, 05:01:27 PM by Mace2004 »
Mace
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Offline dmf

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Obama and the patriot act..
« Reply #43 on: February 12, 2007, 07:33:14 PM »
Face it all we in this country need is a good old fashioned witch hunt, lets just pick somebody call him guilty and get it over with.

Offline E25280

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Re: Re: Re: Obama and the patriot act..
« Reply #44 on: February 12, 2007, 08:08:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by wrag
I'm thinkin someone hasn't actually read the Patriot Act.



and to finish off..........

We lost many of our rights when we asked government to control
our neighbors for our benefit -- or simply looked the other way when others did
so.

What government can do to our neighbor, it can -- and will -- do to us. Freedom is something that we must give to others if we wish it for ourselves.
While all the quotes I edited out sound good and are interesting and all, they told me nothing about the USA PATRIOT Act, or why you think it is so dangerous.

What Whitehawk seemed to be saying in his original post is something akin to "you guys only like it because a Republican is in the white house, you wouldn't like it so much if a Democrat were there."  Perhaps that is inaccurate, but it was about the same type of conversation I had just had with my dad about a different matter, so that was my understanding.

And my basic point, to which you have not offered any real refutation, is that it doesn't matter who is in charge.  No President is more or less likely to abuse any given law.  No law is "good" under one party and "bad" under another, IMO.

If you say the USA PATRIOT Act is bad law, fine.  I fully admit I have not read it.  But the people complaining about it are by and large those who I intrinsically distrust.  The parts they complain about ("oh, no, you might find out someone downloaded pr0n at the library!"  "oh, no, you can't listen to Al Quaeda operatives in Pakistan if they are calling someone in the USA!  You need a warrant for that!"  etc. )  just seem silly.

Maybe it is ground well tread for you, but as an infrequent visitor to the O'club, the paranoia displayed here is beyond my puny powers of comprehension.  So, please, feel free to educate me about all the bad things in the law.  I am always willing to learn.  But you haven't helped so far.
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