Author Topic: Stop The War, Support Our Troops  (Read 3435 times)

Offline Hawco

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« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2007, 01:17:39 PM »
This country  is caught in an existential trap worthy of Sartre's "No Exit." The U.S. wants to help a people who refuse our help, preferring sectarian vengeance that could continue for decades as it does in Lebanon and Palestine. The United States overthrew a despot, only to reap the fruits of despotism. Saddam used terror and military force to keep a tight lid on religious feuding, and although a section of the Iraqi population was ready for freedom, a huge proportion was not. They have erupted with the anger of the oppressed and the dispossessed. Ultimately, Iraqis aren't fighting over religion but over their history. They have lived in a 'no exit' society in which violence makes sense because nothing else does.

All signs point to the necessity of finding an exit, for them and for us. The election of a Shi'ite government allied to Islamic clerics foreshadowed the future. Iraq, like Iran, wants to be an Islamic state. Some form of civil authority will be paralleled by a much stronger clerical government that stays out of sight but rules with an iron hand. Such an outcome makes no sense to Westerners. Why should the average Iranian struggle while mullahs become billionaires and a puppet civil government pretends to be in charge? But that is the current state of Iranian affairs, and apparently of Iraqi affairs as well.

If we accept this inevitability, there are steps we can take to ease the transition:

1. Go  to the world at the U.N. and plead for help in keeping a fragile peace in Iraq, on the model of keeping the peace in Bosnia.

2. Federalize the country so that each sect has its own autonomous region with loose links to a central government.

3. Facilitate the movement of people to their new states, trying to avoid the same bloodbath that took hundreds of thousands of lives when Pakistan was partitioned from India.

4. Form an international agency to restore and run the Iraqi oil industry. This would be temporary until the federal state can divide the spoils without creating deeper rifts between Shia and Sunni.

5. Concentrate on money and jobs. One of the worst fruits of despotism is that the populace remains passive, uneducated, hopeless about the future, and indoctrinated with propaganda. For Iraq to live in peace, all these deficits must be lessened.

These measures would lead to an exit from a no exit situation. They would salvage our moral position and actually help the Iraqi people, who so far have been pawns in a military adventure. It's unfortunate that neither the Bush White House nor their Democratic opponents have the courage to find a new way forward. The US is still rehashing failed policies and playing the blame game. The one thing that could make Iraq different from Vietnam is to consider the well-being of the people whose lives we have thrown into chaos. Everyone now repeats the same slogan: It's up to the Iraqis to solve their own horrendous situation. Actually, that's not true.   It's up to us to help heal the chaos we created in the first place.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2007, 01:21:17 PM by Hawco »

Offline cav58d

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« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2007, 01:19:02 PM »
Silly Liberals...Signs are for grown-ups



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Offline cav58d

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« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2007, 01:27:57 PM »
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Offline cav58d

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« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2007, 01:29:56 PM »
So True

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Offline midnight Target

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« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2007, 01:46:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by cav58d


Which one of those had Iraqis involved again? I forget.

Offline x0847Marine

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« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2007, 01:51:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by oboe
I tend to agree with John9001.   We don't have the option to "end the war".    We can withdraw our troops, but the war will go on as long as the people there have the will and means to fight each other.


They have been fighting each-other for over 1000 years, yet our incompetent politicians are going to solve this some how? LMAO its abundantly clear neither party has much of a clue about how to end the terrible mess Iraq has devolved into.

Leave now and Iran gets to run a-muck and the stability of the entire region gets put at risk... we were kind enough to take out their traditional enemy after-all.

If we stay, the "insurgents" and waring tribes have nowhere to go, and can keep fighting forever (sound familiar?).

Either way, any US installed gov will be treated just like the Shaw gov, with religious "leaders" from every country (one of the biggest being Saudi) in the area doing what they can to undermine and topple the "Western" puppet in favor of some nutty religious agenda.. and the one thing about the whack-job invisible man worshippers you can count on is persistence.

Its already a lose, lose, lose situation... all that's left now is for the DC crime families is to pollute the air with party agenda rhetoric, point fingers and pass the buck in their efforts to "take charge", again, and screw things up, again.

Offline Hawco

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« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2007, 01:56:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by x0847Marine
They have been fighting each-other for over 1000 years, yet our incompetent politicians are going to solve this some how? LMAO its abundantly clear neither party has much of a clue about how to end the terrible mess Iraq has devolved into.

Leave now and Iran gets to run a-muck and the stability of the entire region gets put at risk... we were kind enough to take out their traditional enemy after-all.

If we stay, the "insurgents" and waring tribes have nowhere to go, and can keep fighting forever (sound familiar?).

Either way, any US installed gov will be treated just like the Shaw gov, with religious "leaders" from every country (one of the biggest being Saudi) in the area doing what they can to undermine and topple the "Western" puppet in favor of some nutty religious agenda.. and the one thing about the whack-job invisible man worshippers you can count on is persistence.

Its already a lose, lose, lose situation... all that's left now is for the DC crime families is to pollute the air with party agenda rhetoric, point fingers and pass the buck in their efforts to "take charge", again, and screw things up, again.

Much he same I said a few posts further up Xmarine.

Offline dmf

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« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2007, 02:21:04 PM »
I support the troops, if by doing so I have to support the war, then so be it, I support the war too then.

not a single person that I know of asked to go over there, but they went all but one lieutenant anyway, they did so because they signed an oath, I support them.

Call me a female war monger if you want to, but I really hope we win.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2007, 02:23:14 PM by dmf »

Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2007, 02:39:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by cav58d



But Iraq was not involved in any of those incidents...even our President said so.  


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Offline Hawco

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« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2007, 02:43:53 PM »
I see the point where you are coming from DMF, I really do, but win what?
let me explain further,
This "War on terrorisim" is quite frankly the wrong term to use INMHO,

--The enemy is stateless, confined mostly to local cells; the movement as a whole crosses national boundaries.
--Stateless terrorism is best fought as a police action, with vigilant policing on the local level.
--Anti-terrorism requires cooperation from every nation, not a limited number of political allies.
--We should not aim at total victory any more than we aim for total victory over crime.
--Keeping the threat down to a manageable danger should be our primary goal.
--Reducing public fear and anticipation of attacks should be a secondary goal
The Bush administration either ignored or underplayed all of these, choosing maximum public fear, unilateral action, and the futile promise of total victory instead. Now that we are coming out of the fog or war--at least outside right-wing circles--we still need to ask if the fight against terrorism is being won or lost
The Fight, not the "war" I belive is being won on a daily basis, but not in Iraq.
There are significant signs that it is being won, but not on the Iraqi front. The war galvanized militants who would otherwise have remained quiet. Invasion raised the specter of a Christian crusade, the most hated aspect of Muslim history. Young dissident males, largely unemployed and lower class, joined the jihadist cause while millions of sympathizers suddenly rethought the issue of al-Qaida. As with Hezbollah after the Israeli invasion, an extremist group like al-Qaida could clothe itself in patriotism and civil defense.
Ultimately the reason terrorism is losing is that it is pointless. Al-Qaida has a negative vision. Short of creating fear, threatening the West, and hating Israel, terrorists offer no future, no productive solutions for the endemic problems across the Middle East. As we have experienced since 9/11, fear subsides, and the few attacks that succeed can be endured. Compared to all-out war, the number of casualties inflicted since 9/11, not counting the Iraq war (which we started voluntarily), has been minimal, and even including Iraq casualties of U.S. troops, the fatalities are meager compared to annual traffic deaths and random crime.
The real harm inflicted by al-Qaida is that it allowed our militarists and reactionaries to ply the American public with unwholesome fear and promises of victory that are illusory. We permitted ourselves to fall, not to al-Qaida's level, but lower than we have ever sunk in terms of torture, secret prisons, total disregard for prisoners' rights, and the unnecessary loss of civil rights and freedoms. Only in that sense can al-Qaida claim success. We didn't have to allow them even this pitiful achievement.

Offline lasersailor184

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« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2007, 02:44:37 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
If only Bush had been a great war leader and appointed real warriors in his cabinet.  as it is Bush is a simpleton cheezeball who has done more to lose the war in Iraq than the insurgency.  Lets get a real leader in there (McCain) and then WIN the damned war.  [/B]


Thanks Yeag.  Whenever I'm down you always come up with the funniest **** ever.


Ha, McCain.
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Offline Hap

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« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2007, 03:38:22 PM »
Hawco,

Excellent post.

The only way to make the "terrorists" stop is to kill them all.  Which is an insane course of action.

My "guess" is that they will bring about their own destruction while the poor folks in the Mid East continue to kill each other.

What would all this look like if the West used no oil?

Regards,

hap
« Last Edit: February 26, 2007, 03:47:57 PM by Hap »

Offline Hawco

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« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2007, 04:06:18 PM »
Hap
Lets look at our politicians and see why we can't get answers from them.
Consider the following:
It seems to be unfolding that Democrats will remain timid in actually curbing the current war policy in Iraq, and in the end a bad war will go on indefinitely. As a result, people will grow cynical about politicians to a deeper degree than ever. If a senator can't vote his conscience on an obvious wrong like the Iraq war, what hope is there for the whole breed of Washington politicos?

I'd like to argue against this view, which has been coloring public perception at least since Watergate. "Throw the rascals out" is a time-honored theme in American politics, and it arose again last November over the corrupt Republican Congress. If that election only brought in a new set of rascals, however, the whole system is beyond repair. Instead of jumping to that conclusion, consider why a politician doesn't vote his or her conscience.

--He doesn't have a conscience to begin with
--He is beholden to campaign contributors
--She is afraid of losing her base constituency
--She fears attack from powerful lobbying groups
--He wants to be a party loyalist
--He was told that the leadership needs him to vote a certain way
--She can't really make up her mind
--He's lazy or ill-informed
--He has a view of the issue which has no chance of winning
--She believes compromise is necessary for passing any law
--She weighs conscience in with other ethical factors, like protecting minority rights
--He is solely interested in expediting his own re-election

These dozen factors give a sense of the complexity of serious decision-making, and not just in politics. They expose our shared fallibility, which should not be laid exclusively at the doorstep of the Capitol. In truth, some of these factors working against conscience are onerous, some aren't. Some denote lack of character, others arise from genuine moral conflicts. Obligations shift and splinter all the time.

In any case, to brand these factors as completely negative is a gross oversimplification. We should realize that after walking into Congress clothed in the purity of our principles, every one of us would begin to vote against our conscience, either a little or a lot. We would try to fit into the system and to thrive in it, not only for selfish reasons but to help the people back home. Sometimes it's destructive to vote your conscience, as Sen. McCain may find out in 2008 if he remains a hawk on Iraq, a position that clearly reflects his conscience.

As long as cynicism blocks our view of reality, we won't be able to change what can be changed. As the old saying goes, politics is the art of the possible. Human nature can't be drastically altered, and neither can a closed institution like the U.S. Senate. Yet it's entirely realistic to cut down the power of lobbyists, expose congressmen whose vote is paid for, hold up to criticism anyone who votes out of laziness and ignorance. Fortunately, the American system is set up to make these corrections periodically, if too slowly and with not enough punishment when things go seriously wrong. As for the rest of the list, I believe in a little more tolerance. Politicians aren't a separate, corrupt breed. They are people caught in a decision-making that challenges even the best conscience much of the time.

Offline Hap

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« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2007, 04:12:02 PM »
Hawkco,

Will return to your post, but must run to work.  I've included a link to a short essay that Pat Buchanan wrote recently.

I sent it to my sister who was much impressed.

In it, he touches on what you also observed.

http://www.theamericancause.org/

All the Best,

hap

Offline Speed55

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« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2007, 04:15:36 PM »
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2003/1/Iraq-s%20Involvement%20in%20the%20Palestinian%20Terrorist%20Ac
Edit:
I can't get the link to work right.

Iraq's involvement in terrorism in the territories includes extensive financial aid transferred from Iraq to terrorist groups in the territories, and to families of suicide bombers as well as to injured terrorists and those whose homes were destroyed. The funds are given to the families in public and in highly publicized ceremonies, which take place throughout the Gaza Strip and Judea and Samaria. During these ceremonies funds are distributed on behalf of Saddam Hussein, the President of Iraq. This activity is legitimized by the Palestinian Authority, with the participation of Palestinian ministers, members of the legislative body and mayors in the ceremonies.





This is from a quick google search, because i don't feel like digging through books for quotes.

Iraq did support terrorist groups..

This is a war on terror.

Unilateral action is needed when our safety and freedom has been jeapordized. Our supposed allies from the U.N. with the exception of a few didn't have the balls to commit to action, but when they need something from us there hands sure come out fast.

Winston Churchill was also part of unilateral action when no one believed, or had the balls to stand up to hitler.  
I guess he should have listened to Chaimberlin* and tried to give hitler what ever he wanted instead.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2007, 04:28:08 PM by Speed55 »
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