Author Topic: Why are ho's bad?  (Read 2504 times)

Offline REP0MAN

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Why are ho's bad?
« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2007, 01:28:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by TinmanX
Dogfights are like being in the Lav with George Michael. You don't want to be the one in front if you can possibly help it. After months of practice you should be able to twist and turn to reverse you positions and make sure George is in front of you, where the least damage can be done. Some people circumvent this and it is bad. Standing toe to toe both they and George end up with the other guys pee on their nice leather chaps.


What you guys don't realize is, Tinman speaks from experience here.

True, literal, experience.

:D
Apparently, one in five people in the world are Chinese. And there are five people in my family, so it must be one of them. It's either my mum or my dad. Or my older brother, Colin. Or my younger brother, Ho-Chan-Chu. But I think it's Colin. - Tim Vine.

Offline VERTEX

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Why are ho's bad?
« Reply #31 on: March 13, 2007, 02:46:06 PM »
Ive been playing the game for a few years now, and only fairly recently have I become skilled enough to estimate my opponents E state to properly execute a rope.

Sometimes it works out great and just as I turn in the vertical, he has run out of E and is hanging usually with his belly up and I let him have it.

Othertimes, I run out of E and have to turn over while he is still facing me, so we end up face to face in the vertical.

Is this considered a HO?

Offline stephen

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Why are ho's bad?
« Reply #32 on: March 13, 2007, 04:05:18 PM »
Fighter tactics are not laws, and pilots are not "knights of the sky."
They are cloak and dagger, kick you while your down, sneaky premadonnas<====,,

ANyways, somtimes your so low on E that the only thing you CAN do is point and fire head-on.....im not going to show you my belly at the top of a loop, im going to face you...,,if one of the the two HO'ers pulls out, then there will be no collision....its MUTUAL!!!!!!!

often times the diving apponent lets his fangs hang a bit to far out instead of trying for a second pass,...


ok, so in closing, A HO'r, {as almost any pilot at one time or another will accuse the winner of being} aint cheating,its a valid tactic, and I dont really care if you disagree:aok
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Offline TequilaChaser

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Why are ho's bad?
« Reply #33 on: March 13, 2007, 04:21:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
Because the HO we refer to in the MA is usually a direct result of lack of skill.

 There are a few situations where HO's are considered "logical". For instance, when you are outnumbered, taking a HO shot to quickly remove one of the opponents may help save your life. Or, when your plane outguns the opponent by far, and is deemed a tough plane, then it is very likely you'll be the victor when a HO happens.

 However, no matter how 'logical' it may be, ultimately the HO is embedded with a luck factor you cannot control. You could do all you can do about HOs perfectly, and still if the opponent lands a good shot on you then you are going down. No matter how well you fly, when a HO happens the results are always influenced by the other guy. This, according to the fundamentals of aerial combat, is totally unacceptable.

 The problem is, in the MA, people do not have to cope with the "death/fear" factor the real life pilots had. Therefore, sometimes they fly very wrecklessly. This means by getting in a plane with a good turning ability, they can just pull maximum turns everytime and try to meet every enemy movement by turning into him, facing him forward, bearing guns at his face in a HO run. Sometimes these newbies don't know any better, sometimes its intentional. Whatever the reasons there may be, one thing for certain is that these HO attempts always have the same results: the HO kills the "skill factor" and brings in the "luck factor".

 No matter how superior pilot the other guy may be, if you can always meet him in a HO angle then it always comes down to luck (if the other guy decides to take a shot in that angle also). That's why veteran pilots hate HO attempts - it's a purely gamey way of thinking, with no respect whatsoever towards the theory and science of aerial combat maneuvering.

 I agree to the general premise that "it takes TWO to HO". However, when a newbie in his favorite  Schitfire follows you around, and then does nothing but max turns everytime to force a HO angle, it gets really, really frustrating. I'm trying to win this fight without getting shot at, but the other guy doesn't care if he gets shot or not.  All he cares is bearing the guns on me, and getting a chance to pull the trigger. That's why people hate it.


 



Damn, that pretty much sums it up to the TEE............:aok

dangit all  Kweassa, i play hell trying to click on the underlined words , guess am too use to links , rofl..... :D
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline kj714

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Why are ho's bad?
« Reply #34 on: March 13, 2007, 04:52:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by hubsonfire
Wow, he doesn't even have the game, and he's asking about HOs, what's dweebish, and toolshedders.

That's a good troll. :rolleyes:



Da** right, I don't remember this tack being taken yet.

Starts at an 8 for me.

Offline kj714

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Re: Re: Anti HO Dweebs
« Reply #35 on: March 13, 2007, 04:59:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SteveBailey
New guy, don't buy into this hype.  The truth of the matter is that it takes two to merge, only one to make the merge a HO.

This traveler fellow would lead you to believe that the HO is some kind of skilled ACM. Please do not be lulled into this form of gameplay.  Your skill development will suffer and you too, could be forced to rely on this coin toss of a tactic.



I've never been in a HO that I didn't choose to participate in. Not necessarily instigate, but participate in. If you have any SA at all, you know when a guy is lining for the HO, it's easy to manuever out of the way, if you wish.

The guys that cry about it are generally the guys that lost, the guys that avoid it have no reason to comment as they are on to better things.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2007, 05:01:21 PM by kj714 »

Offline Traveler

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Re: Re: Anti HO Dweebs
« Reply #36 on: March 13, 2007, 05:02:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by SteveBailey
New guy, don't buy into this hype.  The truth of the matter is that it takes two to merge, only one to make the merge a HO.

This traveler fellow would lead you to believe that the HO is some kind of skilled ACM. Please do not be lulled into this form of gameplay.  Your skill development will suffer and you too, could be forced to rely on this coin toss of a tactic.


You need to learn to read something without reading into it, I never said that the HO was a skilled ACM.  I said that it take two to HO and if some one wants to put his aircraft directly in line with my guns, I'll take the shot.
Wouldn't you?
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Offline Angry Samoan

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Why are ho's bad?
« Reply #37 on: March 13, 2007, 06:30:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
Because the HO we refer to in the MA is usually a direct result of lack of skill.

 There are a few situations where HO's are considered "logical". For instance, when you are outnumbered, taking a HO shot to quickly remove one of the opponents may help save your life. Or, when your plane outguns the opponent by far, and is deemed a tough plane, then it is very likely you'll be the victor when a HO happens.

 However, no matter how 'logical' it may be, ultimately the HO is embedded with a luck factor you cannot control. You could do all you can do about HOs perfectly, and still if the opponent lands a good shot on you then you are going down. No matter how well you fly, when a HO happens the results are always influenced by the other guy. This, according to the fundamentals of aerial combat, is totally unacceptable.

 The problem is, in the MA, people do not have to cope with the "death/fear" factor the real life pilots had. Therefore, sometimes they fly very wrecklessly. This means by getting in a plane with a good turning ability, they can just pull maximum turns everytime and try to meet every enemy movement by turning into him, facing him forward, bearing guns at his face in a HO run. Sometimes these newbies don't know any better, sometimes its intentional. Whatever the reasons there may be, one thing for certain is that these HO attempts always have the same results: the HO kills the "skill factor" and brings in the "luck factor".

 No matter how superior pilot the other guy may be, if you can always meet him in a HO angle then it always comes down to luck (if the other guy decides to take a shot in that angle also). That's why veteran pilots hate HO attempts - it's a purely gamey way of thinking, with no respect whatsoever towards the theory and science of aerial combat maneuvering.

 I agree to the general premise that "it takes TWO to HO". However, when a newbie in his favorite  Schitfire follows you around, and then does nothing but max turns everytime to force a HO angle, it gets really, really frustrating. I'm trying to win this fight without getting shot at, but the other guy doesn't care if he gets shot or not.  All he cares is bearing the guns on me, and getting a chance to pull the trigger. That's why people hate it.





 In the early days, the term "toolshedder" was used by the furball folk against the strat folk. But nowadays it's a term more associated with the armageddon locust hordes in the game - the huge swarm of bad guys who only appear at undefended fields and fronts, and choose to blitzkrieg that area of the map by fighting ground objects, rather than actually meeting the enemy in the air.

 The typical toolshedder tends to just disband the horde and disappear when an opposition of similar magnitude rises. When they can't just milkrun fields to their liking, they just go away, give up the fight, and then reform the swarm horde at some other undefended area of the map, and then go busting "toolsheds" in that undefended field.


:aok

Ty Kweassa

Offline abc123

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Why are ho's bad?
« Reply #38 on: March 13, 2007, 09:06:21 PM »
Thanks to everyone who contributed a helpful response.  I guess I should have cleared it up for the few of you out there.  

Usually before I get into a new major hobby I always like to read up and learn as much as I can about it.  I have been living in the forums for the past couple of weeks, reading all that I can, seeing whats acceptable, ok, wrong, and usefull.  Anyway, I have almost always read about how people think that HO'ers are unskilled and I was just wondering why it was considered unacceptable, and I now know why.(I guess after I watched the DogFight episode with the F6F and the zero I think it was that one).  

Anyway, thanks to everyone who helped out, I look forward to joining the community.

-Brian
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Offline SteveBailey

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Re: Anti HO Dweebs
« Reply #39 on: March 13, 2007, 09:55:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Traveler

I’ll side slip out to the right side and at the last second  swing my nose back in with rudder for the snap shot, as the nme continues to hold his course to make what he thinks is a close pass on my left side.   Just to realize that my tracers are off and he’s got a face full of lead.  

I loved it when one guy that I HO’d three times  in a row came up on vox to complain that I had no skill.  


Quote
You need to learn to read something without reading into it, I never said that the HO was a skilled ACM. I said that it take two to HO and if some one wants to put his aircraft directly in line with my guns, I'll take the shot.Wouldn't you?

Well it seems to me you are pretty proud of your HO abilities.  Perhaps I misunderstood what to me seemed like a bit of chest thumping.

If the other plane had a gun solution on me as well, no I would not take the shot.  I would maneuver to ensure he didn't score on a HO while at the same time moving to gain angles for a shot.

 I try to get more than one kill,  while dying,    per flight. Plus, a vistory where you have outflown or out-smarted your opponent is infinitely more satisfying that air jousting/coin tossing.  A HO invites just that.  Mid air jousts where often both sides lose, even if someone wins.  I would not consider the following a satisfactory end:  I shoot down the bad guy but receive a holed rad, PW, or even an ail or elevator hit.  To me, this means I'll probably have to land my wounded bird and start over again.  It's an unsuccessful sortie.

Offline Oleg

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Why are ho's bad?
« Reply #40 on: March 14, 2007, 02:25:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
Because the HO we refer to in the MA is usually a direct result of lack of skill.
[skip]

The problem is, in the MA, people do not have to cope with the "death/fear" factor the real life pilots had. Therefore, sometimes they fly very wrecklessly. This means by getting in a plane with a good turning ability, they can just pull maximum turns everytime and try to meet every enemy movement by turning into him, facing him forward, bearing guns at his face in a HO run.


Im sorry, but though i mostly agreed with your first statement, "trying to meet every enemy movement by turning into him, facing him forward" was exaclty that real pilots in real war did. In fact, waiting while enemy will attack from your 6 before counteract (scissors, barrel roll, etc) far more gamey. This is possible (and preferred) because of luck of "death/fear" factor in game, we can afford that risk because we will not die then we loose.
If somebody attack you, you are in danger already. Turn toward him and your enemy in danger too, he cannt just shoot in you w/o rist to get hits. That is how "death/fear" factor works in RL.

Calling HO as "gamey way" just silly wrong.
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Offline Kweassa

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Why are ho's bad?
« Reply #41 on: March 14, 2007, 05:32:44 AM »
Quote
Im sorry, but though i mostly agreed with your first statement, "trying to meet every enemy movement by turning into him, facing him forward" was exaclty that real pilots in real war did.


 You're referring to maxim number 6 of Boelcke's Dicta, where it states;

Quote
6. If your opponent dives on you, do not try to evade his onslaught, but fly to meet it.


 However the logic behind this maxim is something very different from just turning and meeting everyone in a HO angle everytime.

 
Quote
In fact, waiting while enemy will attack from your 6 before counteract (scissors, barrel roll, etc) far more gamey. This is possible (and preferred) because of luck of "death/fear" factor in game, we can afford that risk because we will not die then we loose. If somebody attack you, you are in danger already. Turn toward him and your enemy in danger too, he cannt just shoot in you w/o rist to get hits. That is how "death/fear" factor works in RL.


 Not having to HO doesn't necessarily mean you wait for the enemy to do something so you can turn the tables against it. Like you mentioned such a "passive" response is another 'gamey' method, most usually preferred by the vets against a n00b attacker.

 However, like mentioned above "turning into the enemy" is a move that holds a lot more purpose than just to bluff a HO. The logic is totally different. Boelcke specifically describes the situation as "if the enemy dives on you", which implies a situation where the enemy pilot has alt advantage on you and is coming with a typical diving attack pass.

 He demands you must 'turn into the enemy' because that will present a situation where the enemy pilot must take a snap shot in a very steep dive at high speeds, where the window of opportunity is small and the lead angle is extreme. Not only that, but also according to how the enemy plane 'recovers' his dive after missing the shot against you, it might present a good opportunity to turn the tables.

 In other words, Boelcke's not suggesting to take a HO shot everytime someone attacks you. He's saying you must be more aggressive in your counter maneuvering to minimize the chances of being shot down while maximizing the chance to turn the tables, instead of just passively watching the bad guy come down on you and then moving out of the way when he's close.

 Again, this is something very different from the typical HO situation encountered in the MA. It is also very different from what happens in real life, where the tactical environmnet concerning aerial combat is very different from both our MA and the skies of WWI, when Boelcke came up his with Dicta. In WW2, by far the most preferred method of defense is the Luftberry circle, dragging the bad guy around in a practiced standard turns so some other guy can come and clear your six.


Quote
Calling HO as "gamey way" just silly wrong.


 The "gamey HO" is as gamey as the pilot behind it. Since many pilots in the MA are gamey in their way of thinking, calling the standard "HO" tactic so preferred by these same people "gamey" is only fitting.

Offline Harp00n

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Why are ho's bad?
« Reply #42 on: March 14, 2007, 05:52:29 AM »
I´ll HO everyone who actually dares to do it vs. my FW190 A8...the look of enemy planes which fly in pieces past my plane after they where shredded by the mix of  my 20 & 30 mm cannons is just so rewarding...

Oops, my first post and I already admitted that I like HOs :D

But as said before...it needs 2 pilots for a perfect HO...the one who loses is the one to complain on the forums about it´s noobishness.

Offline Angry Samoan

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Why are ho's bad?
« Reply #43 on: March 14, 2007, 07:55:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Harp00n
I´ll HO everyone who actually dares to do it vs. my FW190 A8..


psssst  



   its no secret if your flyin one of these with 30mm package that your merge is going for a HO shot.


;)

Offline RedTop

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Why are ho's bad?
« Reply #44 on: March 14, 2007, 08:07:35 PM »
Get in a BIG CANNON plane.....

Shoot everything in the face....

Then you'll be right on par with 90 percent of the rest of the players.
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