Explanation please

[TexInVa]

Originally posted by Vad
Lambo, you would start flat lead turning? Looks like there is no sense to try vertical turn, and flat turn put you in defence from the beginning. So, you agree with others that Spit v P38 fight should be defensive for Spit from the beginning, don't you? And how can I be agressive if I have abandoned my Co-e position on the first second of the fight, and he is above me now +1000?

Jaxxo, do you agree with that? You suggest to let him go vert and get more alt ?

It sounds strange... It means that P38 totally controls the fight from the beginning, can disengage at any moment , and you can do nothing with that.

I don't argue with you, I have zero experience in P38 and very little in Spit but... but it is against everything I've heard before.

Anyway, thank you, I will experiment with this.

I can guarrantee you that once I go into a flat turn in my spit9, I'm not "on the defensive". If you consider turn fighting in a spit9 as "defensive", then you've already lost the fight due to your attitude.
The spit does turn fighting very well, better than most planes on AHII.

And if you think that the other craft has control of the fight when you start turning your spit, then you've still given up the fight.

If YOU can get a P-38 to go into a flat or up-spiraling turn fight, then YOU control the fight and YOU used your plane's strengths to your advantage, agressively. It's an offense of attrition. Whittle away his energy, and he's all yours.

BTW, try to get the fight as low to the ground as possible. You don't want your newly aquired toy to suddenly dive and extend on you. Low to the ground, you'll be able to accelerate faster than the 38, but only if he doesn't try to dive away.

[ColKLink]

A good p-38 jock is dangerous....never follow it to a stall #1.... a good p-38 jock, isnt a easy target by any strech, but a lousy p-38 pilot, is a joy to shoot down,....  Free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it, .....nothing.

[Bronk]

Originally posted by TexInVa
I can guarrantee you that once I go into a flat turn in my spit9, I'm not "on the defensive". If you consider turn fighting in a spit9 as "defensive", then you've already lost the fight due to your attitude.
The spit does turn fighting very well, better than most planes on AHII.

And if you think that the other craft has control of the fight when you start turning your spit, then you've still given up the fight.

If YOU can get a P-38 to go into a flat or up-spiraling turn fight, then YOU control the fight and YOU used your plane's strengths to your advantage, agressively. It's an offense of attrition. Whittle away his energy, and he's all yours.

BTW, try to get the fight as low to the ground as possible. You don't want your newly aquired toy to suddenly dive and extend on you. Low to the ground, you'll be able to accelerate faster than the 38, but only if he doesn't try to dive away.

You flat turn a good 38 stick co alt, co speed on the initial merge ..... He is going to zooom up out of reach and dance on your head.
A flat turn just burns E, you get neither alt or speed.


You emphasized the wrong word in your second paragraph.  The key word is IF, and no good 38 stick is going to be suckered by an initial flat turn.
I'm no where near Murdr's, AckAck's, league and I know I wouldn't.

While I'll agree on the premise of getting the fight low. However how you do that is the trick.

Ohh and BTW the Mk IX only out accelerates the J/L models to 150 mph. From that point on the J/L out accelerate it. So the only time the Mk IX out accels those 2 models is from a dead stop.

You can check that here----. http://gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php

Like I said (and stand by)in my previous post.  Do not commit to the fight until it falls in your best fight/flight envelope.


Bronk

[TexInVa]

If I've got the p-38 low and slow to the ground, no stats will allow him to run away.

And you're right. If I go into a flat turn and the 38 climbs, I'm usually only making (a max of) a 90° turn. Once I see him climb, I leave. And yes, it's annoying to fight that way, but either the 38 is going to loose momentum, leave the fight altogether, or I'll actually get him into a turn fight.

My point is, you've (or Vad did) lost the fight as soon as you think that the spit in a flat turn is defensive fighting. It's not. My emphisis stands "as is".

Now, instead of allowing this to turn into a pursefight, why don't we try to help Vad fight a 38 in his spit? I don't know about you, but I can't help him with every single pilot in a 38, or tell him every single move to make against every move made by the 38. With that, I'll continue to post in "generalizations" until he can get a spit up and figure it out. A kind of epiphany piloting will have to occure, as does with just about every other pilot out there, once BCM is figured out.

It does help when 38 pilots, like ack-ack, come in and tell what he sees as weaknesses in his flying a 38, like he did earlier about turn fighting. I'm sure Vad said "ahhhhhhh!" when he read that. Unfortunatly, Vad also saw getting into a turn fight as a "bad" thing. That need to be cleared up, or it WILL be a bad thing.

[Bronk]

Originally posted by TexInVa


My point is, you've (or Vad did) lost the fight as soon as you think that the spit in a flat turn is defensive fighting. It's not. My emphisis stands "as is".
.

Lets see last tour I flew spits seriously was January and was starting my 38 transition. Lets do a little numbers research.
Jan Tour
Flacco
P-38G   0   0    P-38G   0   0
P-38J   0   0     P-38J   2   0
P-38L   0   3     P-38L   2   1
Spitfire Mk IX   76   5      Spitfire Mk IX   5   67


Bronk
P-38G   7   1      P-38G   0   1
P-38J   15   2      P-38J   3   5
P-38L   12   12    P-38L   3   1
Spitfire Mk IX   37   9     Spitfire Mk IX   4   7

Take from this what you will. The point I'm making what I do works, not all the time but enough for me to keep improving on it.

Vad if your still checking in on this thread , turning does work. Problem is when to start.

Bronk

[Vad]

Hey, guys, thank you and relax .

TexInVa, of course I didn't ask about every single move and every pilot in AH.
I know  Spits turning abilities, and have some knowledge about its optimal speed range.

I was asking only about first seconds of the fight right after merge. And only if you  co-energy. Just first move in Spit against P38.

I can take care of the rest by myself:

P-38G 0 6 P-38G 0 0
P-38J 0 5 P-38J 3 0
P-38L 0 12 P-38L 3 0
Spitfire Mk IX 109 21 Spitfire Mk IX 9 15  

Thank you again for your help and advices.

[scottydawg]

Blackdog68,  you got owned by a better pilot.  Trying to call him out for 'cheating' is not only lame, it makes you look like a jealous idiot.  Akak is a really good stick and can take on most anyone that is willing to fight...  Plus the 38 is an amazing plane. I'll be the first to admit I haven't gotten anywhere near mastering it and probably never will, but a good 38 jock can make it fly like a Stradivarius plays.

[TexInVa]

LOL@Bronk

Just had to get the purse out, didn't you?

Vad, I don't come straight in to anyone anymore, not with all of the HO'ing that's been happening lately, so my merge with just about anyone usually starts with a slow, lazy, constricting circle. If the 38 (or any other faster plane) just keeps on moving, I don't usually follow. I'm usually looking for anything that decides to turn hard towards me. A hard turning plane means a slowing plane.

[blackdog68]

Originally posted by scottydawg
Blackdog68,  you got owned by a better pilot.  Trying to call him out for 'cheating' is not only lame, it makes you look like a jealous idiot.  Akak is a really good stick and can take on most anyone that is willing to fight...  Plus the 38 is an amazing plane. I'll be the first to admit I haven't gotten anywhere near mastering it and probably never will, but a good 38 jock can make it fly like a Stradivarius plays.

Ummm, I stated he warped (and apparently our 2 different views of the first part of the fight still lend some support to that analysis...).  It was only later, after a series of ch:200 chats days/week+ later, that I let go with the C word.  And I don't mind getting "owned" at times, most of the time when it happens I know why.  Perhaps you can search for all my other posts about being shot down?  Oh yeah, you won't find any.

Doesn't matter....I think he and I are all good on it now.

However I will say this, and its more in the philosophical realm than directly related to this incident.  I grew up playing playground basketball, where trash talking is a way of life.  Some people, in here as well as real life, apparently are WAY too sensitive for that.  Put another way, you take your trash talk to a country club tennis match, everyone looks down at you.  You take your sensitivity to a playground pickup basketball game, everyone laughs at you.  In poker, which I also play, at 1 time professionally, trash talk is used as it is in b-ball, to get your opponent off his game.  And you know what, everyone knows it for what it is, even if you've gotten someone's goat or been gotten.  No blood, no foul, and we buy each other gatorades or beers after

[humble]

Originally posted by Vad
Thank you, Spatula

I'm here since 2004, and I'm flying a lot. Of course, I know that it is pilot not plane gives 99% of success. And my hard disk is full of .ahf files.

What was surprised me in this thread is advice to give up your initial Co-E state for the purpose to equalize it later on the low, more favorable speeds. It's new concept for me.  

May be it's just me but I always try to dominate the fight, and I feel very uncomfortable being low and relatively slow.

But once again, I don't argue, I've just never tried this. I will.

To me the key is to not be the "same as the other guy". I find being negative E is "normally" an advantage.....but the key is to be negative E when the other guy thinks your not {or having less E then expected}....

Here we see the opposite....the 38 driver simply is flying a "different" E merge...the moment you think....This one is going to be easy....your right. The only thing in question is easy for who? Murder did the same thing to me (accept I was in a F6F doing 400)....simple lesson learned...dont get "cute" with a 38....ever. I fight 38's all the time and do reasonably well....but the bird is very capable....when flown to its strengths.

What seperates a 38 driver from the rest of us is the fact that 38 drivers dont survive many mistakes in a fight. So the guys who stick with it get better and better at managing a fight....they make fewer mistakes. They also capitalize on yours more often. Jugs and 38's....always assume the "other guy" is a stud. The "life" you save may very well be your own:)

[RASTER]

Far too many claims of "we met head-on and he turns 180 and then catches me up" claims are made. Not one of them has ever came with a film which shows anything out of the ordinary.

Well I am glad others have noticed it too because I wasn't going to mention it. This is why some RL combat manuevers do not work in AH. That no one has been able to send in a AHfilm is unbelievable. Perhaps it is unrecognized. In the limited time that I have been a subscriber I have seen this sustained energy fluk often enough to anticipate it.

In AH you have the benifit of knowing what plane is manuevering to an attack position. In AH you also have the benefit of piloting and being familiar with all the planes. So a defending pilot knows the basic flight physic parameters of the attackers plane and of course reasons out a series of manuevers to defeat the attackers best possible manuevers. It's when the attacker arrives at waypoints in their program where they should not have the inertia to attain that the defender goes wide eyed. It has nothing to do with warping or lag.

Many, many, many, many  times I have seen an attacker come out of a series of bank turns from below me, enter into a almost vertical climb and end in an Immelman to promptly arrive at D400 on my 6 at a speed to match my own, even though I have maintained straight level flight. There are other examples but these situations make clear there is a conservation of inertia at work in AH renders RL manuevers unreliable.

The point is, when you know it is there you will have to compensate for this effect and just accept that the attaker will be there, at that point if allowed to manuever you in. This is not RL afterall.

RASTER

[humble]

Originally posted by RASTER
Well I am glad others have noticed it too because I wasn't going to mention it. This is why some RL combat manuevers do not work in AH. That no one has been able to send in a AHfilm is unbelievable. Perhaps it is unrecognized. In the limited time that I have been a subscriber I have seen this sustained energy fluk often enough to anticipate it.

In AH you have the benifit of knowing what plane is manuevering to an attack position. In AH you also have the benefit of piloting and being familiar with all the planes. So a defending pilot knows the basic flight physic parameters of the attackers plane and of course reasons out a series of manuevers to defeat the attackers best possible manuevers. It's when the attacker arrives at waypoints in their program where they should not have the inertia to attain that the defender goes wide eyed. It has nothing to do with warping or lag.

Many, many, many, many  times I have seen an attacker come out of a series of bank turns from below me, enter into a almost vertical climb and end in an Immelman to promptly arrive at D400 on my 6 at a speed to match my own, even though I have maintained straight level flight. There are other examples but these situations make clear there is a conservation of inertia at work in AH renders RL manuevers unreliable.

The point is, when you know it is there you will have to compensate for this effect and just accept that the attaker will be there, at that point if allowed to manuever you in. This is not RL afterall.

RASTER

Actually basic physics, all you need is E=MC2. Thats why an A-20 will outzoom any fighter in the game.....

[Vad]

Originally posted by humble
Actually basic physics, all you need is E=MC2. Thats why an A-20 will outzoom any fighter in the game.....

And Lancs will outzoom A20
According to this formula any fighter has enough E to outzoom out of the galaxy.

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by RASTER
Well I am glad others have noticed it too because I wasn't going to mention it. This is why some RL combat manuevers do not work in AH. That no one has been able to send in a AHfilm is unbelievable. Perhaps it is unrecognized. In the limited time that I have been a subscriber I have seen this sustained energy fluk often enough to anticipate it.

In AH you have the benifit of knowing what plane is manuevering to an attack position. In AH you also have the benefit of piloting and being familiar with all the planes. So a defending pilot knows the basic flight physic parameters of the attackers plane and of course reasons out a series of manuevers to defeat the attackers best possible manuevers. It's when the attacker arrives at waypoints in their program where they should not have the inertia to attain that the defender goes wide eyed. It has nothing to do with warping or lag.

Many, many, many, many  times I have seen an attacker come out of a series of bank turns from below me, enter into a almost vertical climb and end in an Immelman to promptly arrive at D400 on my 6 at a speed to match my own, even though I have maintained straight level flight. There are other examples but these situations make clear there is a conservation of inertia at work in AH renders RL manuevers unreliable.

The point is, when you know it is there you will have to compensate for this effect and just accept that the attaker will be there, at that point if allowed to manuever you in. This is not RL afterall.

RASTER

In 99% of the cases, the "we met head-on and he turns 180 and then catches me up" can be attributed to the one confused as to how he died under estimating the relative energy state of other plane and of ACM.  you can also add not having a full understanding of the strengths and weaknesses of the plane he is fighting or even of that of his own plane.

My '180 turn' as was originally described was a result of using a low yo-yo as a lead turn on the merge which was a real life merge tactic and it works quite well in AH.  In fact, despite what you think, ACM maneuvers translate very well in AH to the point that some ACM maneuvers that wouldn't work and have become essentially aerobatic maneuvers in real life work very well in AH.  


ack-ack

[RASTER]

Estimating the relative energy state of the opponent is not easy and mistakes can be made even if you have the time and situational awareness to track the opponent to establish their inertial state.

The "outzoom" concept is not entirely clear to me. It would seem far more complicated.

The Yo-Yo's really work well in Jets but in prop's every time you move the controls you loose inertia. Changes in AOA and removing sideslip, should scrub off a significant percentage of the air speed.

The Yo-Yo works well if the defender is turning or piloting erratically but if the defender has a matched plane and is sustaining maximum velocity with his rudder trimmed, there is no way on earth the attacker will close the distance if he does any kind of manuever including a Yo-Yo.

Certainly acceleration will close the gap but the pilot should be aware that lighter or more powerful aircraft will recover from inertial loss in a shorter time. The faster the plane the greater the loss when moving the control surfaces. If the pilot applies most of the attitude changes at low speeds before preceeding into a dive, then there is a higher conservation of inertia compared to the pilot who banks hard at the bottom of a dive.

However, in AH much of this awareness is pointless as there are pilots who can defeat this logic and if the defender is not aware and prepared for it, then the attacker will have his helmet.

At sustained maximum velocity there is no manuever which does not loose inertia in RL.

RASTER