Round 1 Exit Poll Results and Predictions Thread

[hubsonfire]

Originally posted by Pyro
I would say the first part was uncalled for, but the second part does kind of make it funny.

 I think he missed the irony.

[tedrbr]

Originally posted by hubsonfire
I almost voted for the A-26, but I think it's in the same realm as the G55. Sure it may be neat, but it didn't really contribute.

I voted yak because Yaks are uber, and I figured the B-25 and P-39 were going to get enough votes of their own accord. I expect one of those 2 to win, but I won't be terribly upset regardless. I just wasn't going to support a few planes that I wasn't interested in at all, and hoped enough spare Yak votes would push the undesirables out of the running early.

.  
Invaders did contribute, but they did not get any big or sexy missions.  

Douglas XA-26 prototype first flew July 10, 1942, and saw military service from August 1943 (initial deliveries to USAAF) until final retirement from Air Guard in 1972. IIRC, the December 1943 date was when they deployed the first 30 planes forward to ETO and PTO for evaluation by front line units.

They began arriving in England in September 1944 for assignment to the 9th Air Force and entered combat two months later on Nov. 19, 1944. Invaders began operations in the Pacific Theater in January 1945. Invaders saw combat for 7 months in the European Theater, and 8 months in the Pacific Theater. (That pretty much covers much of the Late War Arena time frame, No?)  The Invaders were to replace the A-20's, B-26's, and B-25's (and did after the war).

2,448 to 2,502 Aircraft were built (sources vary, and may or may not include prototypes).

By the end of WWII, 48 squadrons of A-26's were in operation among the Fifth(Far East Air Force), Seventh (WPTO), Ninth(ETO), and Twelfth (MTO) Air Forces, at the very least.  This included the 8th and 13th in the 3rd Bomb Group (Light) "Grim Reapers"; the 386th's 554th Bomb Squadron; and the 319th Group after assigned to the 7th AF at Okinawa.

Typical mission target: Communications centers. Rails and rail yards.  Marshalling centers.  Supply centers.  Convoy Routes.   More tactical than strategic targets.  No big sexy raids.

Typical mission profile: Every Six A-26's in a mission included 1 - A-26C pathfinder and 5 - A-26B heavy gun versions.  The A-26C had the norden bombsite and clear nose.  Other five dropped ord with the lead plane.  After this level bombing portion of the mission was done, the Invaders would drop to the deck and search for targets of opportunity to strafe with all those .50's, and often rockets.  Even the A-26C had six .50's in the wings and 2 in the nose for 8 forward firing .50's.  And they did this for 7 to 8 months of the war in the PTO and ETO.

*******

Only thing that concerns me about Yak 3 is it had shorter legs than the 9.  Lighter weight, less fuel, ... a great air superiority fighter, as compared to the interceptor and ground attack ones we have now, but with fuel in war arenas set at x2, very short legged little plane.  Plus, limited ammo load of Yaks will drive voters away, I'm betting.

[hubsonfire]

Base defense is great. Not only do the bad guys come to you, but you don't even have to fly very far. This helps negate the effects of low range fighters, and when the action isn't frantic, you can get some nice ranges with the various throttle settings.

I'm not against the A-26 at all, I'm just not for it at this time. When we talk about contributions, and length of service, and holes in the planesets, SEA/FSO event planes, etc, I think we should get the more prevalent types first. I'm all for the A-26, but only when we've got all the stuff that came before it, or was used on more fronts, or for significantly longer periods, etc. I'd personally like to see it in the game, but I have to admit there are a lot more relevant planes missing, that could also be put to good use in special events, and still find regular roles in the MAs. That's how I look at it anyway.

And while I'd love to see a few of the planes on the list make it, I know we're missing the sort of things which they preyed upon, and having to blast a spawn point instead of tearing up a depot, train station, etc just takes some of the fun out of it.

[Guppy35]

Ted, where do you find info about A26s in combat in the Pacific for 7-8 months.

I can only find mention of their first mission with the 5th AF on July 12, 1945 when the Grim Reapers flew a mission with 9 A26s.  That's less then a month before the war is over.

First mission for the ETO Invaders was November 17, 1944 which give you about 6 months in the ETO but that was not a big batch of 26s all at once as the Groups were converting to them.  This was 3 other groups that followed the 416th that was first into action.  386th,  391st and 409th were the others that converted after this.

I'm not anti A26, but I just don't see it as the most logical choice for AH at this time.

[tedrbr]

Originally posted by Guppy35
Ted, where do you find info about A26s in combat in the Pacific for 7-8 months.  I can only find mention of their first mission with the 5th AF on July 12, 1945 when the Grim Reapers flew a mission with 9 A26s. That's less then a month before the war is over.

That was the 5ths first combat mission over Japan with A-26's.  5th did very first combat evals of any A-26 in mid-1944.  Mid July 1945 was also about the time the 7th AF started operating their A-26's over Japan.  Invaders did not operate over Japan itself in the PTO until the last month.


The very first combat evals, with limited numbers began mid-1944:

Four early production aircraft were rushed to the Fifth Air Force during mid-1944 for combat testing with the 13th Bombardment Squadron, 3rd Bombardment Group, in New Guinea. The pilots flying the aircraft (A-26B-5-DLs) really liked the A26's high speed and response to throttle settings but when the under wing .50caliber gun packs were added, they were a bit dismayed by a 25 mph drop in speed due to the extra drag.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3901/is_200208/ai_n9104030/pg_6

Another similar source quoted:

The first Invaders to see combat were A-26Bs flying low-level attack missions in New Guinea in the spring of 1944 (see John Henebry's oral history in this issue). Their crews complained of poor visibility, especially to the sides from the cockpit and a lack of forward firepower for ground attack and strafing missions. The original A-26 cockpit had a flattened top with only one forward-hinged upward opening hatch on the right side, from which quick escape was difficult for the pilot. A new cockpit with outward hinged clear "clamshell" openings was quickly developed, which also improved the pilot's visibility.

These were very limited numbers in mid-1944, but more models were pushed forward.  Bomber groups in Europe being rotated to PTO were also being converted to A-26's during this time.  Most A-26's seem to be getting sent to ETO more than the PTO, as there were far more reports in early 1945 of A-26's in ETO than PTO during this time.

Summarizing the 9th Air Force experience with 18 A-26s sent to the UK in the summer of 1944, and used in eight combat missions, the AAF said it was considered a very effective medium bomber with a larger load than the A-20 airplane, greater range than either the A-20 or Martin B-26 airplanes, with superior single-engine performance. Its speed advantage, flying characteristics, maneuverability, and ease of maintaining formation permitted longer missions with less crew fatigue. On the missions flown, gasoline consumption was lower and radius of action was greater than had been expected.

http://www.b-26marauderarchive.org/ms/MS1733/MS1733.htm


One of my sources was the USAAF chronology listed here:
http://paul.rutgers.edu/~mcgrew/wwii/usaf/html/

It takes some digging and reading though.
They are given on a day and month report in brief as below.

SUNDAY, 19 NOVEMBER 1944
EUROPEAN THEATER OF OPERATIONS (ETO)

  TACTICAL OPERATIONS (Ninth Air Force): 450+ A-20s, A-26s, and B-26s bomb
storage depots, bridge, junction, ordnance depots, and defended positions in
or near 10 German towns and cities; fighters escort the bombers, carry out
patrols, and fly armed reconnaissance hitting rail facilities and other
targets over W German areas including Euskirchen, Trier, Saarbrucken, Julich,
and Cologne; the IX, XIX, and XXIX Tactical Air Commands support the US VII,
XII, XIX, and XX Corps areas E of Aachen and near Hurtgen, Germany, between
Metz, France and Saarlautern, Germany and near Sarreguemines, France. In
Belgium, HQ 366th Fighter Group moves from Couvron Airfield at Laon, France
to Assche.

Production block numbers can be found here:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~fbonne/warbirds/ww2htmls/douga26.html
All block numbers that removed the dorsal barbette for an additional fuel cell were intended to be shipped to the PTO.

[Guppy35]

OK so we're talking the limited combat evals done, not widespread combat use.

The way it was first presented seemed to indicate large numbers of A26s in combat in the PTO and ETO, when in fact that just isn't true.

Kenney's guys preferred the A20 and B25 because of the poor visibility in the combat evals they did of the A26.  Jock Henebry, that you mention had a ton of combat ops in 25s and 20s.

Some of Henebry's missions to Rabaul in 3rd Attack B25s are amazing to read.

I understand that the A26 was a real hot rod, and would be a good MA LW performer, but I think HTC needs to look at overall use in all aspects of the game and again I believe the B25 fits the role a great deal better.

[tedrbr]

Originally posted by Guppy35

I'm not anti A26, but I just don't see it as the most logical choice for AH at this time.

* Buff drivers only have 1 perk ride, the Arado, which is not all that good.
* Some Buff drivers have been accused of adopting "bomb and bail" tactics, since, hey, don't need buff perks for anything really.  Why land it?
* A-26 Invader about the best perk-worthy bomber that could reasonably be added to the game.
* A-26 Invader can operate as a level medium bomber. Penetration bomber.  CAS Attack plane.  Bomber Destroyer.  Even a Heavy fighter by a good pilot.  A multi-role plane addition.
* 9/10ths+ of players found in LW arenas.  Majority gravitate toward ENY 5 planes.  Large percentage of players go for late war, high performance rides.  
* A-26 Invader a high performance bomber/attack plane, may even draw a few fighter pilots to try bombers on occassion.
* A-26 would do well in strafing roles in-game; vs GV's, deacking fields and town, dropping towns, and vulching fields.  

It is a versatile platform that many bomber and attack plane pilots could find a fun use for in the LW arenas, and even LW SEA event senerios.  It had a variety of ordnance options; various bombs, rockets, drop tanks, many .50's, torpedoes.

Did it have the effect on WWII as the B-25 or Pe-2?  Nope.  But, AHII is far more tactical sim than a historical recreation sim game.  

If AvA, EW, MW, or senerios had larger numbers, I might see a EW or MW plane being a "logical choice", but as they are the severe minority, I don't see the logic in adding a plane tailored for low population areas of the game, or historical nich areas.  

Also, Invader is the *only* American plane I push for --- perk buff ride --- otherwise, the effort should be to add to other country plane sets.  Still figure the P-39 will get the vote though.


B-25 is simply a earlier bomber sitting between the current B-26 and B-24 in ordnance loads, performance, speeds, climb rates, and abilities.  A few tried 75mm's for anti-shipping, which ruined airframes after 20 shots or so.  How does adding a another EW level bomber between the B-26 and B-24 add much to the game?  A couple senerios?  I'd rather see Russian or German bombers added to help plane sets before another American un-perkable bomber.  Moot point, as a bomber will not win a popular vote for AH-II addition.

The complaints about A-26 visibility resulted in canopy change by the block 45's or 50's.  Field use of 75mm (Block 5's all shipped with 75mm nose cannon in A-26's) led to change to 8-pack of .50's in the nose of A-26, as they proved more effective in anti-shipping role with API rounds.

[VWE]

I fear the majority of the players of AHII, those that don't participate in the forums, or have a historical knowledge of WWII planes, won't know enough about the listed planes to make an informed decision.

I like to refer to those people as the 'smart ones' who fly for fun.

[Gianlupo]

Originally posted by eskimo2
The P-39, G.55 and M3 410 stand a good chance of making it to round 3; I’d even bet that one of them will win.

Lol, I wish! But we alll know that one of them will be the winner.... and we all know what plane is that....

[humble]

Originally posted by Karnak
Personally I don't see the point of even doing the poll.

Put a single American fighter on the poll and the result is a forgone conclusion.  Only my having multiple American fighters or none would the issue be in doubt.  And if there were multiple US fighters, it would only be between the US fighters, all other aircraft would be irrelevant .

That is my guess anyways.

I dont think thats accurate at all, in fact the only bias the statement shows is yours.......

[Puck]

Originally posted by tedrbr

It will come down to an uninformed popular vote based on name recognition.

Are you talking about aircraft or politics?

[Airscrew]

Poll results so far today as of 8:15
P-39 22
G.55 18
A-26 16
me-410 14
He-111 11
TU-2/Pe-2 10
B-25 9
Yak3 6
Japan 5
Brewster 4

[FrodeMk3]

Official results are up, check Pyro's new thread.

[eskimo2]

Final polling after 122 posts total:

P-39 . . . . . . . . . 22
Brewster Buffalo . 4
Me 410 . . . . . . . 14
He 111 . . . . . . . 11
B-25 . . . . . . . . . 8
Pe-2 or Tu-2 . . . 10
Yak 3 . . . . . . . . 6
G.55 . . . . . . . . . 18
Japanese fighter . 5
A-26 . . . . . . . . . 16


Not so accurate of a poll since the second highest in the poll was dropped after the real vote…

[eskimo2]

Originally posted by Airscrew
Poll results so far today as of 8:15
P-39 22
G.55 18
A-26 16
me-410 14
He-111 11
TU-2/Pe-2 10
B-25 9
Yak3 6
Japan 5
Brewster 4

Doh! I should have read first.