Author Topic: gun control...  (Read 6919 times)

Offline Hornet33

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gun control...
« Reply #225 on: April 20, 2007, 11:58:04 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
you are all fired up for change and can't begin to think of one that would be any of those things. let alone all of them.


C'mon... let's hear it. SURELY you have an idea? Something?
====
A four step process:

A) I suggest upgrading the current  federal background check to the level of a government security clearance.

B) I suggest a federal mandate requiring a Mental Health Evaluation prior to any firearms purchase.  

B) I suggest a requirment to pass a mandatory Frearms Safety Training course prior to any firearms purchase, after passing the mental health evaluation.

C) I suggest a requirment that a concealed carry permit be obtained after passing both the MHE and the FST before any purchase of a concealable firearm.  

Now ahead and shoot every one of these (pun intended) ideas down.  They are no doubt unworkable in your opinion.  Heck, maybe posts some ideas of your own.  Oh wait......there is no problem so why bother.  The machinery is working just as it should.


A. Might be a good idea but who is going to pay for it and who is going to do it? I have a security clearance and it took months to complete the investigation and cost thousands of dollars in time and manpower. Do you propose this be done for EVERY firearms purchase or is it a one time deal? Since I already have a secuirty cleance for the military would I be required to have one done to purchase a civilian firearm?

B. Again who is going to do it and what is the format involved? Standard questions or is it going to be left up to the evaluator to make up whatever questions they want to ask that day? What is the legal liablity involved if someone "passes" the evaluation and 6 months later freaks out and goes on a killing spree? You just can't predict how people are going to act in the future. Also what if someone has been to counseling in the past for some issue or other but they are fine now. Do you hold that against them? Also what is the cost, and who pays for it? Are you suggesting that peoples health records be given over to the government? What do you think in my case? I went through a divorce, went to couseling because I was depressed and angry, and was taking anti depressants for about 6 months. I'm fine now but I was kinda rocky there for awhile so would that bare me from ever being able to purchase a gun in the future?

C. This one I agree with 100% I believe a firearms safety class should be required before anyone is allowed to purchase a weapon and I even know how this could be paid for. Cops teach the classes. The local police depts hold classes once a week and the cost should be say around $100  The officer teaching the class gets a 15% cut right off the top as incentive payment for teaching the class and the rest of the money goes into the depts budget for training cops, hiring new cops, whatever. The only exception for this class would be military or law enforcement weapons training. I mean really does a soilder that carries an M-16 all the time really need to go to a civilian class to learn proper firearms safety? No he doesn't.

D. I'm not so sure about. If I want to buy a pistol for target shooting and I have no intention of ever carrying the thing on my person why should I be required to have a CCW? A CCW isn't issued for an indvidual weapon. I own four handguns and I can carry any of them with my CCW. I didn't have to get a CCW, it was my choice. Some people might not want one. Plus even though I have a CCW that doesn't mean I'm required to carry all the time. I decide when and where I carry my weapons, not the state. Point being, a CCW is a personal choice if you wish to carry or not, it shouldn't be a requirement to own a handgun.
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Offline indy007

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gun control...
« Reply #226 on: April 20, 2007, 12:00:24 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
you are all fired up for change and can't begin to think of one that would be any of those things. let alone all of them.


C'mon... let's hear it. SURELY you have an idea? Something?
====
A four step process:

A) I suggest upgrading the current  federal background check to the level of a government security clearance.

B) I suggest a federal mandate requiring a Mental Health Evaluation prior to any firearms purchase.  

B) I suggest a requirment to pass a mandatory Frearms Safety Training course prior to any firearms purchase, after passing the mental health evaluation.

C) I suggest a requirment that a concealed carry permit be obtained after passing both the MHE and the FST before any purchase of a concealable firearm.  

Now go ahead and shoot every one of these (pun intended) ideas down.  They are no doubt unworkable in your opinion.  Heck, maybe post some ideas of your own.  Oh wait......there is no problem so why bother.  The machinery is working just as it should.

Of course we could just arm everyone, no restrictions.  None.  I would support that.


I don't have a problem with the ideas themselves... but I can afford it. I have no problem paying out of pocket for the exams, training, evaluations, etc...

Not everybody can do that though :( That creates a financial issue, making it class discrimination. Maybe if it was government subsudized... but really, could that ever happen in our political climate? Our government training civilian shooters? Well... maybe in some red states... but others, no way in hell.

Offline Terror

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gun control...
« Reply #227 on: April 20, 2007, 12:06:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
A) I suggest upgrading the current  federal background check to the level of a government security clearance.

B) I suggest a federal mandate requiring a Mental Health Evaluation prior to any firearms purchase.  

C) I suggest a requirment to pass a mandatory Frearms Safety Training course prior to any firearms purchase, after passing the mental health evaluation.

D) I suggest a requirment that a concealed carry permit be obtained after passing both the MHE and the FST before any purchase of a concealable firearm.  


A) Which level of security clearance?  A "lifestyle" background check?  Which lifestyle is not acceptable to be a gun owner?  Homosexuality?  A Rights activist?  An environmentalist?  What would the rule be to determine who passes this check and who gets to make the judgement?  How do you make it fair to all who apply?

B)  How do you make an objective "Mental Health Evaluation"?  I believe that this test would be purely subjective based upon the opinion of a "psychologist".  Who gets to choose the psychologist that administers the evaluation?  Is the psychologist responsible if a person commits a crime after being passed through an evaluation?  The governement must provide the funds to pay for the evaluation also.

C)  I can agree with this, but it must be government provided and be free to any individual that wants it.  Passing the course must be standardized and include physical proficiency with a firearm.  The government must provide the firearm and the ammunition to complete the course.  Who pays for the government provided course and materials?  Since owning a firearm is not a "priviledge" but a right, you cannot make someone pay to be able to exercise their rights.  Plus the argument can be made that you are restricting firearm ownership to the "rich" and oppressing the poor.

D)  So to buy a target pistol to shoot at the range once a year, I have to get a CCW?  If this is the case, then the government must again finance and provide that training and materials to get the CCW.

Terror

Offline Toad

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gun control...
« Reply #228 on: April 20, 2007, 12:10:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
A four step process:

A) I suggest upgrading the current  federal background check to the level of a government security clearance.
[/b]

You worked for Boeing; did they ever tell you what even a mere Top Secret investigation costs?

This one fails several tests: it's not workable because the FBI doesn't have the manpower and it takes over a year, it's not affordable because the per person cost is several thousand dollars. Those two factors make it fail the reasonable test as well.

Quote
B) I suggest a federal mandate requiring a Mental Health Evaluation prior to any firearms purchase.
[/b]

The problems with that one have already been pointed out in this thread, so I'll just clip them from Capt. Virgil Hilts points posted previously:

Quote
No psychiatrist or psychologist is going to be willing to do those evaluations because the liability costs would be prohibitive. Problem: The first time a psychiatrist or psychologist "lets one slip through the cracks" they'll be sued for BILLIONS. Problem: To prevent "letting one slip through the cracks", NO ONE will pass the evaluation, the failure to pass rate will be 90% PLUS. Problem: Now honest sane citizens are prevented from owning a weapon and their rights under the 2nd Amendment violated, so the courts are flooded, and rightly so, with citizens suing to get their rights back.

The wait for evaluation would be an eternity. Problem: There aren't enough psychologists and psychiatrists to handle the work load, IF any of them were stupid enough to open themselves up to the liability of "letting one slip through the cracks". Problem: The wait for an evaluation would be eternal, preventing honest law abiding sane citizens from purchasing weapons.



So again this suggestion is not workable, reasonable or affordable.


 

Quote
B) I suggest a requirment to pass a mandatory Frearms Safety Training course prior to any firearms purchase, after passing the mental health evaluation.
[/b]

This isn't a really big deal. It's already done for Hunter Safety and CC licensing. So it's workable, reasonable and basically affordable.

I do have one question though. Your concern is VT incidents. Just exactly how is Firearms Safety Training going to prevent any of this type of shooting? Obviously it won't have any effect whatsoever. You've just tossed this on out there to be tossing something out. It would have no bearing on firearm murders with the exception of possibly making the nutbags slightly MORE deadly.


Quote
C) I suggest a requirment that a concealed carry permit be obtained after passing both the MHE and the FST before any purchase of a concealable firearm.
[/b]

It could work and it might be affordable for some but not all. As to workable, just what would this accomplish?

Remember, the goal is to prevent VT incidents, murders, etc. So what will mandating CC do to achieve that goal? Again, it would do nothing.
   
So yeah, I think your list is just a Yeager feel good list to make you feel you've done something.

However, any rational evaluation of your suggestions leads inevitably to the conclusion that these things would not prevent what just happened.

The only possible exception to that is a mandated psychiatric eval for all gun purchases which is clearly an unworkable, unaffordable proposal for the reasons re-posted above.

And now... let me ask you this. IF you got everything in your wish list, would it prevent mass killings with illegally obtained weapons?

Columbine springs to mind... none of those guns were obtained legally.

So, what then eh?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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gun control...
« Reply #229 on: April 20, 2007, 12:12:44 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
I'm not against workable, reasonable, affordable ideas.
====
what might these be?


I don't have any that meet those criteria. Apparently neither do you.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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gun control...
« Reply #230 on: April 20, 2007, 12:34:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yeager
I have a Virginia CCW and I DID have to provide proof of firearms training and get finger printed in order to get it. I don't feel that violated my rights at all. As a law abiding citizen and those are the laws I followed them and got my permit.
====
Perhaps the requirement to purchase/own a handgun should be that you NEED a CCW.  Toad and Mav and you others, the only thing you are saying is that we are going to have to continue "biting the bullet" and having these slaughters of innocents to the "yet to be diagnosed" mentally ill who find it so damned easy to purchase a firearm legally and go wipe dozens of people off the map permanently.  

Those 32 people died in what amounts to an involuntary affirmation of our right to keep and bear arms.  In years past I would have resigningly agreed with this sentiment but I know and you know that there is a way out of this, none of us seem quite able to grasp it, but there is a way.

PS
Toad, no I didnt read it, can you summarize it?

Mav, I can typically go up to two ten line paragraphs.  Study the way lazs communicates for best form.

PSS Need to come up with a way to eliminate these insane shootings guys or like I said upstream, the average american is going to yearn for a constitutional change and it will happen eventually.



So, you can't come up with solutions to the problems your solution creates. No surprise there, it's too much trouble and takes too long to read, I'm sure. Did you even READ the list of problems, or was the post too long for you to be  "bothered with"? You know, it's REAL EASY for you to sit there and DEMAND people come up with solutions, when you can't be bothered with reading more than two lines in response.

If you wish to have an intelligent, constructive discussion, it cannot be done in two line sound bites. The sooner you figure that out, the sooner progress can be made.
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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gun control...
« Reply #231 on: April 20, 2007, 12:36:04 PM »
Hey Toad, just call me Hilts, the whole name may take too long to read.:t
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Offline Maverick

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gun control...
« Reply #232 on: April 20, 2007, 12:42:01 PM »
These allegations ripley. I'll post them again.



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Then once the gun sits there, it's just a matter of time when it gets pointed on people on a murderous spur. Murder impulse. They say the second and third one are easyer after the first kill.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I already posted a reply to this but you never came back and answered it. I'm waiting for your proof of the inevitibility of your premise. I've got over 3 decades of emprical data to show it does not follow.

I'm also waiting for you to come back with your source on the second and third kill premise. Is this personal experiance talking here?
« Last Edit: April 20, 2007, 12:54:00 PM by Maverick »
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Offline Maverick

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« Reply #233 on: April 20, 2007, 12:47:11 PM »
IIRC from my college psych classes there is no clear definition of "sane".

Given that situation how do you propose to define a "norm" and then a quantifiable duplicatable and most importantly unbiased method of determining the results of any psych exam?

Trying to make and then field a system for this is a real beeyotch isn't it Yeag.?

Rights are not granted by a "state" based on an evaluation or court decision. They are only denied, with cause, from a court decision / conviction based on law. Trivializing them only suborns the importance of them and starts a denial process. Once the right becomes something only granted on application it has stopped being a right and becomes a privilege granted at the state's pleasure.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2007, 12:52:39 PM by Maverick »
DEFINITION OF A VETERAN
A Veteran - whether active duty, retired, national guard or reserve - is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a check made payable to "The United States of America", for an amount of "up to and including my life."
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Offline Yeager

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gun control...
« Reply #234 on: April 20, 2007, 01:39:41 PM »
it's REAL EASY for you to sit there and DEMAND people come up with solutions
====
calm down hilts.  Im not DEMANDING anything, and if I were it would not be REAL EASY.  We squared up on this now?


"I'm not against workable, reasonable, affordable ideas" - "I don't have any that meet those criteria."
====
Well there it is then.......

I know whats involved in a clearance and thats why I suggested it.  

A mental health evaluation should be mandatory for firearms ownership and is possible.  Sorry if you disagree.

A firearms safety class should be mandatory for firearms ownership and is possible.  Sorry if you disagree.

A Permit for cencealed weapons should be mandatory for pistol ownership and is possible.  Sorry if you disagree.

I dont see these as being cost prohibitive.  We have wasted 300+ billion dollars in Iraq and its cost us over 3200 american lives.  Weve got deep pockets apparently.

Thanks for the discussion, its resulted in some good thinking.
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Offline Yeager

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gun control...
« Reply #235 on: April 20, 2007, 01:45:16 PM »
Rights are not granted by a "state" based on an evaluation or court decision. They are only denied, with cause, from a court decision / conviction based on law. Trivializing them only suborns the importance of them and starts a denial process. Once the right becomes something only granted on application it has stopped being a right and becomes a privilege granted at the state's pleasure.
====
Damn Mav.  Thats good writing bro.  I agree with it.  Just be ready though, cause there is a tipping point headed our way.  Too many sick people with guns, its going to get worse and the scale will tip against lawful ownership.  I think so many gun owners are so entrenched in maintaining the status qou that they will eventually end up being lumped in with the whackjobs.  Im just trying to think of a way to offest that tipping point.
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Offline 68ZooM

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« Reply #236 on: April 20, 2007, 01:56:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shamus
The last time that happened to me I just used my handy sword to dispatch the aggressor.

Firearms are really not needed.

shamus


I guess i could say what if he had a shotgun pointed at you and was intent on using it, your sword wouldnt do squat and i doubt youd be posting today, but i'm glad you fended him off
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Offline 68ZooM

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gun control...
« Reply #237 on: April 20, 2007, 02:00:52 PM »
Guns dont kill people, its the person pulling the trigger. go ahead take guns away then what do we ban next ?
knifes,bats,icepicks,screwdrivers, sticks, bricks, forks, cars, trucks, the list can go on and on and on, if your really wanting to kill someone it doesnt really matter what you use if your that twisted to want to kill that person
« Last Edit: April 20, 2007, 02:04:20 PM by 68ZooM »
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #238 on: April 20, 2007, 02:10:44 PM »
Well, I suppose it would be possible to shovel the sand off all the beaches of California with tablespoons and haul it off to fill in Death Valley in little red Radio Flyer wagons too.

It wouldn't be reasonable, workable or affordable though and, despite your insistance, none of your ideas are either.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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gun control...
« Reply #239 on: April 20, 2007, 02:14:52 PM »
Oh, and you've yet to explain how your new system will prevent this from happening when some nutbag gets his gun outside of the system, IE: illegally.

If you had read that list of school killings I posted, I think you'll find that's how most of the nutbags get their weapons.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!