Senate majority leader: Iraq war is LOST

[Maverick]

Toad,

You should recognize, and probably already have done so, that viking (gscholz) is still doing his baghdad bob routine. Reality is irrelevant.

[Viking]

Originally posted by Toad
It is indeed clear that you haven't done any research. "Tens of thousands" is incorrect. The best research I can find would raise that into the hundreds of thousands range.

This does not count the dead at sea category of the boat people, which is significantly larger than both camp figures combined. I'm sure you'll say the NV did not kill these people, they chose to flee and died because of that decision. Of course...they were fleeing the labor and re-ed camps but that doesn't count, I'm sure.

No I don’t count deaths the NVA was not directly responsible for. Just like I don’t blame the Americans for the thousands of civilians on Saipan that committed suicide at the sight of the approaching Americans.

From a brief search on the net:

Hundreds of thousands of former high ranking South Vietnamese officials, particularly ARVN officers, were imprisoned in reeducation camps after the Communist takeover. Tens of thousands died in these camps, and many fled the country after being released. Up to two million civilians also fled the country, and as many as half of these boat people perished at sea, trying to escape the country.

So unless you can provide a different source of information that says otherwise I’m going to believe the “tens of thousands” number.

Originally posted by Toad
But that's certainly not enough to merit calling it a slaughter or bloodbath is it? Or whatever semantically correct term you choose for killing people after the fighting has ceased.

You’ve missed my point (intentionally I believe). “Bloodbath” in my opinion is subjective and contextual, not dependant on numbers. Killing a family might be a bloodbath. Killing a million people might not be.


And yes … this is definitively a semantics debate now. Something that could easily have been avoided if all parties involved used the English language correctly, thus avoiding confusion.

[Toad]

Roger that Mav; just highlighting for those that may not be aware.

[Toad]

Vietnam Democide

Most detailed study I've seen so far. Interesting reading; numbers are on table 6.1B, line 671-687.

By the way, nice semantic dodge there. Just what would you call the killing of a few hundred thousand people after hostilities were over? I mean, since you use the English language perfectly and all?

[Viking]

Originally posted by Toad
Vietnam Democide

Most detailed study I've seen so far. Interesting reading; numbers are on table 6.1B, line 671-687.
 

According to those numbers the “low” category lists 20,000 unnatural deaths in “reeducations camps” over a period of 13 years. The “medium” category” lists 95,000 unnatural deaths.

In “labor camps” the numbers are 20,000 and 48,000 respectively.

The high estimates put unnatural deaths in the hundreds of thousands range over a period of 13 years.

So using the low or medium estimate the number of unnatural deaths were in the tens of thousands range, not hundreds of thousands.

However, these are all just estimates, and I quote: “Assumed 2.5%, 5%, and 7.5% annual death rate of line 669 for first 6 years; 1% of line 670 for the next seven years.”

Those percentage numbers seem very contrived to me, and I don’t know what to believe at this point.

Originally posted by Toad
Just what would you call the killing of a few hundred thousand people after hostilities were over? I mean, since you use the English language perfectly and all?

I would call it “the killing of a few hundred thousand people”.

[Toad]

Most other studies give the re-education camp numbers in the 100-160K range and about the same for the forced labor camps.

I guess you would then call the Holocaust "the killing of a few million people", right?

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Viking
No I don’t count deaths the NVA was not directly responsible for. Just like I don’t blame the Americans for the thousands of civilians on Saipan that committed suicide at the sight of the approaching Americans.

What is this? Gscholz there was no reason for those on Saipan to run from the USM but there sure was a reason to run from the NVA.

[Viking]

Originally posted by Toad
Most other studies give the re-education camp numbers in the 100-160K range and about the same for the forced labor camps.

I guess you would then call the Holocaust "the killing of a few million people", right?

I've never been fond of putting emotional labels on murders or killings. I would prefer to call the Holocaust the murder or killing of several million civilians.


I’ve just looked up some statistics on the net. Considering the report you linked to estimated that the rate of unnatural deaths in Vietnamese prison and labor camps were between 2.5% to 7.5% of the total deaths … it interesting that according to the US Bureau of Justice the unnatural deaths in US state prisons in the period 2001 to 2004 were 8% of the total deaths. 6% from suicides, and 2% from homicides.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/mcdsp04.pdf

So even using the “high” estimates of 7.5% unnatural deaths in Vietnamese camps (which puts the number in the hundreds of thousands range), the actual unnatural death rate was lower than in US state prisons. Food for thought.

[Hap]

Originally posted by tedrbr
Planting the seed of democracy in the middle east was arrogant and short sited on the part of us Americans in regards to the social-political realities that is the middle east.  For democracy to take hold, there would need to be a national identity.... there is no national identity in Iraq.  They do not see themselves as Iraqi so much as they see themselves members of their religious sect, clan, tribe, or their power base in relation to others. That's were their loyalties lie.
I know the official grand plan was to spread the joy of Democracy (ironic, since we've been sliding from a Republic to a Oligarchy for years now), but that was an unrealistic goal from the beginning.

Wow, was that well stated Ted.  

Then there was the WMD's AND Iraq's hand in 9/11.  Well, Halliburton has done well, so I guess it's worth it.

[Toad]

Yes, Hap...the Senate voted for it just so Halliburton could make money. That is indeed the sole reason.

Jeebus Cripes.

[Viking]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
What is this? Gscholz there was no reason for those on Saipan to run from the USM but there sure was a reason to run from the NVA.

Yes who wants to live under communism, or poverty, or hunger. Nevertheless, the various national governments of third-world nations are not responsible (not directly anyways) for people risking their lives to make a better life in the west. If you try to cross the ocean in a craft dangerously unsuited for the task you are responsible for the consequences. No one else.

I don't know where you live, but guilt by proxy is a concept that is contrary to western practice of justice.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Viking
I've never been fond of putting emotional labels on murders or killings. I the actual unnatural death rate was lower than in US state prisons. Food for thought.

Of course, people in US prisions are there for breaking the law. People in the camps were put there after the war for being on the wrong side during the war.

So I can see where you find solace in making this comparison.

Do your stats tell you how many of the SV were suicides in the camps vs how many were executed? Or is that an inconvenient stat?

[Viking]

Originally posted by Toad
Of course, people in US prisions are there for breaking the law. People in the camps were put there after the war for being on the wrong side during the war.

So I can see where you find solace in making this comparison.

Do your stats tell you how many of the SV were suicides in the camps vs how many were executed? Or is that an inconvenient stat?

You provided the statistics in question and called it:

Originally posted by Toad
Most detailed study I've seen so far.

… so you tell me?

I would assume there were at least as many suicides if not more considering the likely conditions of those camps. Then again I don’t really know the conditions of living in those camps; for all I know it might have been better than in US prisons … although I doubt that very much.

[Toad]

You're a trip, Scholz.

I find you similar to Boroda when he talks of Stalin.

Although Mav probably puts it best when he likens you to Baghdad Bob.

[Hap]

Toad,

I usually dismiss "we're in it for the money" explanations out of hand.  Which is what I was implying with my crack about Halliburton.  But as crazy as all this is, why not reach for some crazy explanation on that bastion of lucidity, gravity, and precience the BBS on Aces High?

We're not there because of WMD's.  

We're not there, today, because of Iraq and Bin Ladin are two peas in a pod and Iraq had a big enough hand in 9/11 to warrant us invading it.  

I think we're still there because if we left now those in charge think a greater mess will ensue, also that we bear a great deal of responsibility to try to put things as right as they can be put.

If my supposition be correct, if that's why we're really there, I happen to agree.

At one point, I really wanted to know if Bush/Cheney lied.  That is they knowingly over-exaggerated the connection between Iraq and Bin Laden or made it up.  

Or, its all so hidden and secret, that after all this the WMD's and Iraq/Bin Laden connection is there, but like the purloined letter we just can't see it.  That's seems too much of reach.

Now, its all just tiresome and dissapointing because I had hoped for better things from this bunch of guys.  They are the one's with white hats, right?  I just read Michael Chertoff's essay -- a new one -- you can read it at Real Clear Politics.  He equates the War on Terror to the Cold War.  "Limp" was the word that came to mind as I read it.

I think it was stupid to declare "war" on terror.  Sound like a speech writer + political advisor + a catchy phrase to help keep our guys in office sort of tactic.

Better to say less, get all the bad guys we can, and if questioned say "we got the guys who did this to us."

Surreal is the only thing I can come up with.  Maybe we'll invade Portugal next.

http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=creator%3A%22Fred%20Surr%2C%20Ted%20Page%2C%20Janet%20Tashjian%22

I'm sure a future generation will be astounded that things things have happened.  They'll ask, "what were they thinking," and "how could they actually be so obtuse?"