Author Topic: ARGH I HATE CH Products (all fo them!) (Read 7722 times)

Rolex · « **Reply #75 on:** May 21, 2007, 09:07:29 PM »

Thanks for your response, Michael. I'm not writing with a "holier than thou" or a "smarter than thou" attitude either. I'm glad to hear that your material costs are so low that you can throw away all returned product.

Your web site says 2 year limited warranty, but your Japanese distributor includes a card that says one year only in Japan. Maybe you were not aware of that?

Put yourself in my position for a minute.

I bought a complete set - pedals, throttle and stick- directly from your distributor. All of them were defective and unplayable with bad pots out of the box. I called the distributor the same day they were delivered and was told my only option was to send them back to you in the US, at my expense. They would not replace them. The shipping cost would be about $200 to have brand new product repaired or replaced. I don't think that is reasonable, and I trust you would feel the same way.

Your distributor does not stock parts. Again, the shipping cost is unreasonable from the US. I've purchased 3 sticks and another throttle from different retailers, all of them with bad top hats or stick pots. I've had to cannibalize from my CH Products inventory in my CH Products Closet to get a set working and have learned to live with the spiking pots.

I must just be unlucky.

I politely asked your company to contact the distributor and ask them to replace the brand new, unworking product, considering that I have purchased 3 sticks, 2 throttles and 2 rudder pedals - all of them with defects. You replied with a link to your parts page. Thank you very much.

I said originally that you have a good reputation for quality service in the US. I think that's fair and I would not have said that if I were just looking for a fight. Again, how would you feel if you were in my position?

That's a rhetorical question, I suppose. You can't know what problems you may have with foreign distribution if someone doesn't tell you. I don't want to be argumentative or repetitive about this, so if you still feel that you have no problems at all, that's fine by me. I don't need or expect a response to this post.

Cheers

Shaky · « **Reply #76 on:** May 21, 2007, 09:27:07 PM »

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Originally posted by scottydawg
With a handle like ShakyStick, this can't be good.

LOL...only handle I've ever had (with the exception of games with multiple characters like LoK, UO, etc....).

Honestly gotten too, from my first flight instructor.

Citabria · « **Reply #77 on:** May 21, 2007, 09:32:16 PM »

rolex you need to name names with this distributor i think.

Kermit de frog · « **Reply #78 on:** May 21, 2007, 09:42:08 PM »

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Someone in Aces High recommended that we MSFFPro fans should do the following. Put a fully functional one in a box, wrap in plain brown paper with a big "TOP SECRET" marked on the box, and mail it to China. One week later, you will see copies flooding the market... [/B]

If CH made a fighter stick as premium as the MS PP2 Sidwinder fighter stick that I paid $40 dollars for, I'd buy it in a heart beat. Being in the comm tech business, potentiometers are always going to be a problem, but using infrared emitter LEDs and phototransistors to form optocouplers seems to work for some applications where more reliability is needed. I do not have engineering experience with hall sensors vs optocoupling w/ LED and complementary phototransistor setup, but I would think it would be worth investing time/money into. I'll re-engineer my own Joystick if/when the time comes.

Oh, 3d printers sure are coming down in price.

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #79 on:** May 21, 2007, 09:48:57 PM »

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Originally posted by Citabria
but all that aside disregarding potentometers powered usb hubs and power supplies why only 8 bit pots? why not 16 bit? why not high end sensors that one would expect in the best available stick made?

Good question and one that I had asked myself when I was the Senior PC Tech at CH Products. At the time, Chuck told us it was too expensive for the consumer market and all the high end potentiometers were reserved for the OEM products that were being made.

At the time we were just starting to design USB sticks and experimented on a converted Jane's Combat Stick with 50 pots instead of the standard 100 pots. From the tests we ran at the time the converted Jane's Combat Stick performed better, accuracy wise but the pots didn't have a life as long as the 100 pots did and putting 50 pots in for sticks never went beyond the Jane's Combat Stick USB prototype.

ack-ack

Rolex · « **Reply #80 on:** May 21, 2007, 09:49:34 PM »

There is only one, Cit. It's an exclusive distributorship listed on CH website. I've said my piece and was rebuffed about it by CH, so it's beating a dead horse. That's just the way it is.

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #81 on:** May 21, 2007, 09:58:08 PM »

I'm sure CH's policy hasn't changed since I left there almost 10 years ago. During my time, we instructed our foreign customers to send in their faulty gear to the distributor they purchased it from for replacements. The distributor would then inturn send us the faulty gear for replacement or to refurbish. We'd then send back the gear to the distributor for them to resell.

If the foreign customer kept on getting faulty gear (rare but it does happen) then we would instruct the customer to contact the CH contact at the distributor, who in turn would contact CH directly and arrange a shipment of new gear for the customer to be sent out directly from CH. But that was almost 10 years ago...

ack-ack

Ack-Ack · « **Reply #82 on:** May 21, 2007, 10:01:12 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Citabria
using new USB versions of pedals and fighterstick with an x45 throttle.

can anyone give me some Aces High Deviation numbers? I tend to see from 31900 to 32500 ie a 300-600 point fluctuation. is this what you see on the analog readout for X or Y axis ack ack?

I would just like to be sure they aren't all this bad before I send it back and get back the same lousy fluctuations in a nother new stick.

If the USB stick is properly calibrated in Windows, you shouldn't see a deviation in numbers. Mine is rock steady at 32500 and does not fluctuate.

Question, does the fluctuation happen after a period of time or is it constant?

ack-ack

Citabria · « **Reply #83 on:** May 21, 2007, 10:23:50 PM »

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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Good question and one that I had asked myself when I was the Senior PC Tech at CH Products. At the time, Chuck told us it was too expensive for the consumer market and all the high end potentiometers were reserved for the OEM products that were being made.

At the time we were just starting to design USB sticks and experimented on a converted Jane's Combat Stick with 50 pots instead of the standard 100 pots. From the tests we ran at the time the converted Jane's Combat Stick performed better, accuracy wise but the pots didn't have a life as long as the 100 pots did and putting 50 pots in for sticks never went beyond the Jane's Combat Stick USB prototype.

ack-ack

so the 50 pots are 16bit and the 100 pots are 8bit?

and would the 16 bit pot have the 64000 position inputs while the 8 bit has 255?

and what about the methods the sidewinders used? or this dieter hoffman guy who just built the hall monitor stuff on his own and marketed it?
it just is amazing to me that its been four years now and no one has bought the rights from Microsoft for their sidewinder technology and the hoffman stuff is basically been very hard to get in the US ever since it was released ingermany what 5 years ago?

you can see as from what rolex has invested in CH with god knows how many sticks and throttles and rudders that hardcore simmers will pay top dollar to anyone able to deliver a #@!#@! stick and pedals that have the technology and precision they want.

Citabria · « **Reply #84 on:** May 21, 2007, 10:30:22 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
If the USB stick is properly calibrated in Windows, you shouldn't see a deviation in numbers. Mine is rock steady at 32500 and does not fluctuate.

Question, does the fluctuation happen after a period of time or is it constant?

ack-ack

its constant right after calibrating it bounces around always bouncing even when not even touching the stick and its centered. the high ranges on the pots... ie 100-255 bounce the worst. its just not enjoyable for me to fly with a controller that behaves this way. i deadbanded out the centerpoint bouncing but i cant deadband or dampen such heavy oscilations in readings when the stick is deflected and its when its deflected back a bit where your pulling steady lead to hit a target that the stick performs worst right in that area of the band.

im using my saitek x52 again. the ch stick is sitting on the shelf. the x52 dosnt bounce at all and has very precise readings in ah on every axis.

sadly if the ch stick didnt have the bouncing i would prefer to use it instead of the x52

Brooke · « **Reply #85 on:** May 21, 2007, 10:41:10 PM »

My CH stick and pedals are nice and steady. They are about 7 years old, all of it heavy use, and still work great.

I can attest that it does make a difference, powered USB hub vs. unpowered. Unpowered for me has some small amount of jitteriness -- the powered hub makes it all rock steady and beautiful.

I got my first CH stick in 1990 or so because they were recommended by folks in Air Warrior (back when Air Warrior first came out for the PC). Ever since then, I have bought CH gear for myself (a couple sets of normal game-port stuff way back when, replacements to USB when computers stopped coming with game ports), bought some for friends (a stick here and there as a gift), and recommended it to others. I have always been happy with the quality, feel, and performance of CH gear. I've probably bought altogether about 6 sticks and 3-4 pedals over the past 15 years. With all of that, I had maybe two things break: one USB stick damaged probably by static discharge or rough handling during a move of my abode, and wire breakage in my pedals after seven years of heavy use (which I then fixed and still use).

As for 16 bit vs. 8 bit, I don't think it matters at all. At 8 bits, you get about 0.2 degrees of movement per bit. I doubt anyone generally has the ability to maneuver a stick by hand with better than 0.2 degrees of precision or would notice if it's 0.2 degrees, 0.4 degrees, or 0.0008 degrees per bit. What matters is steadiness of the signal and feel of the stick (stick forces, smoothness, etc.), which for my CH stick and pedals seems excellent.

Citabria · « **Reply #86 on:** May 21, 2007, 10:54:22 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Brooke
My CH stick and pedals are nice and steady. They are about 7 years old, all of it heavy use, and still work great.

I can attest that it does make a difference, powered USB hub vs. unpowered. Unpowered for me has some small amount of jitteriness -- the powered hub makes it all rock steady and beautiful.
...

As for 16 bit vs. 8 bit, I don't think it matters at all. At 8 bits, you get about 0.2 degrees of movement per bit. I doubt anyone generally has the ability to maneuver a stick by hand with better than 0.2 degrees of precision or would notice if it's 0.2 degrees, 0.4 degrees, or 0.0008 degrees per bit. What matters is steadiness of the signal and feel of the stick (stick forces, smoothness, etc.), which for my CH stick and pedals seems excellent.

thats my first move brooke can you guide me to a good powered usb hub?

after my initial knee jerk reaction and frustration I have resisted the urge to smash this fighterstick into a million pieces. I find I still want to experience it at its best and not in its current lothsome state.

my problem is that the steadiness and the smoothness is nonexistant with my fighterstick as it wobbles back and forth on its own between readings giving you control of where you are pointing the plane well enough but the plane is bouncing up and down quite rapidly on its own to points on either side of where you intended the plane to be pointing.

i mean you obviously dont see the blackouts as a rapidly pulsating like a heartbeat effect with your fighterstick?

I know i dont see this with my x52.

you dont see the entire ah world wobble as you are in a coordinated turn in a rather annoying fashion?

Rolex · « **Reply #87 on:** May 21, 2007, 10:59:58 PM »

I guess things have changed, Ack-Ack. Michael from CH has emphatically stated that returned goods are thrown away, and CH does not refurbish product and send it back to distributors for resale.

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The ONLY thing that ever leaves this factory is NEW product. If it is defective then it comes back here and the offending piece(s) are thrown away. They never go back out to end users. End of story.

JB73 · « **Reply #88 on:** May 21, 2007, 11:07:01 PM »

I will say Fester sorry about the troubles bro.

when you asked about it in the squad forum I gave my honest impression. I LOVE my stick and it has done nothing but work perfectly since day 1.

I'm gonna bet it is something flaky and weird in your situation, out of the norm so to say. it's a bummer, but thats all I can think of.

You have to admit though, MichaelCHProd is on top of the game, and I bet he will help best he can.

I will say MichaelCHProd I love the product and recommend it to anyone who asks. My ONLY reservation is the throttle. I don't have one for the SOLE reason it does not have rotary trim controls. I really wish you guys would make one with that, then I'd be full CH instead of using the x45 throttle.

Slash27 · « **Reply #89 on:** May 21, 2007, 11:13:42 PM »

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Originally posted by MichaelCHProd
If you have defective product then I have no complaints but when you make false accusations about our products then I have an issue. Re-read my quote I fear you might have missed the "used for new" fable started by "Rolex".

If you read the post I made over at the Hangar you will see a detailed articulate answer for the original problem posted by Fester/Citabria.

Still grumpy that I take pride in our product and the service we provide to all of our customers then CH controllers probably aren't what you are looking for.

You will be sorely missed

I don't have an issue with you taking pride in your product. Its the treatment of Rolex by your company and you I have the issue with.