Author Topic: ARGH I HATE CH Products (all fo them!)  (Read 8154 times)

Offline Xargos

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ARGH I HATE CH Products (all fo them!)
« Reply #90 on: May 21, 2007, 11:24:56 PM »
Do any of you get the impression that things might have been stirred up with the Higher Ups at CH?

Hope they pay attention to use to make their product even better.
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Offline Citabria

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« Reply #91 on: May 21, 2007, 11:36:10 PM »
thing is I still have hope to be a believer in CH gear. I have like half my squad using the stuff and they love it and are not experiencing the problems I am.

its not fair I tell you!:cry :D

that and it sounds like rolex got raked over the coals or fell through the cracks. they might want to look into that more thoroughly.
Fester was my in game name until September 2013

Offline Xargos

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« Reply #92 on: May 21, 2007, 11:43:53 PM »
Sounds like CH might need to start making powered hubs and make it clear that they are needed to make their product work properly.
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Offline straffo

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« Reply #94 on: May 21, 2007, 11:56:34 PM »
Citabria check also if the trim on the Fighterstick are not inducing noise.

Offline Xargos

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« Reply #95 on: May 22, 2007, 12:12:21 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by straffo
Citabria check also if the trim on the Fighterstick are not inducing noise.


I forgot about that.:(

Good call.
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Offline Brooke

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« Reply #96 on: May 22, 2007, 12:37:20 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Citabria
thats my first move brooke can you guide me to a good powered usb hub?

my problem is that the steadiness and the smoothness is nonexistant with my fighterstick as it wobbles back and forth on its own between readings giving you control of where you are pointing the plane well enough but the plane is bouncing up and down quite rapidly on its own to points on either side of where you intended the plane to be pointing.

i mean you obviously dont see the blackouts as a rapidly pulsating like a heartbeat effect with your fighterstick?

you dont see the entire ah world wobble as you are in a coordinated turn in a rather annoying fashion?


I'm using and old, inexpensive D-Link DSB-H4, 4-port USB hub with its own external power supply (and an LED on it telling me when it's running on the external power supply vs. the USB bus supplied power).  I think any of the usual brands of USB hubs with their own external power would likely work (D-Link, Lynksys, Belkin, Kensington, etc.).

I know what you mean.  If I turn off my computer, unplug the external power from my USB hub (into which my stick and pedals are plugged), turn back on my computer (so that the USB devices are powered off my PC's USB bus), and play, my joystick and pedal inputs are somewhat jittery.  In near blackouts, the blackout level will be jittering in and out of blackout levels as you describe, and pulling some g's (so that I'm out of the deadband setting in the game), my nose will hunt around due to the jitter.  When I'm rolling down the runway on takeoff, the ball of the turn-and-bank indicator will be jittering back and forth because of rudder jitter.  Also, I can see the jitter in any program that shows raw stick and pedal values (such as in AH's stick mapping control panel or in Windows settings).

Then if I shut everything down, plug back in the power to my USB hub, and restart everything, all is nice and steady -- smooth as glass.

Offline Brooke

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« Reply #97 on: May 22, 2007, 01:06:43 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Slash27
I don't have an issue with you taking pride in your product. Its the treatment of Rolex by your company and you I have the issue with.


Rolex is a good guy.  But all that happened was that he said, "It appears to me that all those returned products get boxed up and shipped overseas," and the CH Products guy got just a little offended by that (as it would be unprofessional for CH to do that) and corrected the notion with a very mildly sarcastic post.  Nothing wrong with that.  It's not like he stooped to the usual level of discourse we have in here! :)
« Last Edit: May 22, 2007, 01:13:22 AM by Brooke »

Offline BaldEagl

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« Reply #98 on: May 22, 2007, 01:11:44 AM »
Just a thought here and nothing against CH products as I've never owned one but since someone from CH was here so quickly to defend themselves you don't think they've been trolling these sites for years innocuously promoting themselves do you?

I used to have a job marketing an internet site and one of the guerilla tactics we used was to set up user accounts at relevent sites/BBs and post good things about ourselves in inconspicuous ways.

I also spent 28 years in the music industry and there we used to innocuously work "lifestyle" establishments to create buzz around a product/act.

Word of mouth and "community" endorsement go a long way.  "Yeah, I heard CH really makes good stuff but it's expensive".  This is actually brilliant as it works to drive up margins while appealing to the "elitist" mentality (I'm better than you because I spent xxx to get the best) and to pride of ownership; "Yep, I splurged and got the full set-up."

How about the comfort and convenience presented in this thread; "We come searching for YOU if you have a problem".

People instinctively buy a particular product or service, if not out of nessessity, for one of five emotionals reasons and over the years I've heard all five applied to CH products.  

Maybe they do make the best stuff or or maybe not and they are just good marketers.  Decide for yourself.
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Offline MichaelCHProd

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« Reply #99 on: May 22, 2007, 01:13:44 AM »
OK this will be a small novel so some of you may wish to scroll down.

I will start with Rolex...
Quote
I bought a complete set - pedals, throttle and stick- directly from your distributor. All of them were defective and unplayable with bad pots out of the box. I called the distributor the same day they were delivered and was told my only option was to send them back to you in the US, at my expense. They would not replace them. The shipping cost would be about $200 to have brand new product repaired or replaced. I don't think that is reasonable, and I trust you would feel the same way.

That's unsat.  You should have contacted the Director of Retail Marketing and Sales (currently Debby McDowell debby@mailDOTchproductsDOTcom).  I know for a fact that someone in Asia got a defective Throttle Quad and we had the distributor swap it out NOT send it back to us.  Debby is in Europe for the next week but I will send her a PM asking her to check her mail this week.


Quote
I politely asked your company to contact the distributor and ask them to replace the brand new, unworking product, considering that I have purchased 3 sticks, 2 throttles and 2 rudder pedals - all of them with defects. You replied with a link to your parts page. Thank you very much.

Do you have any names by chance?  How long ago was this?


Quote
I don't need or expect a response to this post.

But you should expect one as you deserve a response.


from Ack Ack.....
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The distributor would then inturn send us the faulty gear for replacement or to refurbish.

Nope sorry, mistaken or confused.  We DO NOT refurb controllers for resale... EVER.  I have been here six years and this has never been our policy.



Now serving Ack Ack...

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... when I was the Senior PC Tech at CH Products

Who are you?  

Quote
...Chuck told us it was too expensive for the consumer market and all the high end potentiometers were reserved for the OEM products that were being made.

Chuck still maintains that the Hall Effect Sensors we currently use for OEM products are too expensive for Retail use.  As for the OEM pots, I have tried four different pots from the OEM catalog in my 586 Combatstick and seen no significant difference in use.  They will however last four and five times as long.  With most CH controller owners getting more than five years out of their controllers I don't think this is a real issue.  I mean what do you have connected to your PC right now that is more than five years old?  A PS2 mouse?  A Dell Quietkey Keyboard that was the first one you saw with a Windows logo key?  I have a next generation Combatstick in my office and it's not using over priced OEM pots.  :)



now serving Slash27

I see no reason to continue to banter with you as this is not my house and it will add nothing to the thread.  So I announce you as the "War Hero of the Oppressed" for this thread :aok Your sash and anointed crown await your arrival at the CH Tech Support Office.



and to the meat of the thread I reply to Fester/Citabria...

I am at home right now so I can't remember the brand and model of powered USB hub that we use for testing and trade shows but remind me tomorrow and I will post back here with what we have.

If you are seeing the ball jump after a good calibration in the Control Manager then you may just have a bad stick.  Odd that its both axes but anything can happen.

You can wait to test it on a powered USB hub or you can do one of two things (the list is larger but these are the realistic ones)...

1. Request an RMA from us and send the unit in for repair.
2. Contact the point of sale and exchange the controller for a new one.

If you go with #2 let me know where you go it so I can look for it when they send it in for credit.



Now for the controller discussion...

8-bit(0-255) and 10-bit(0-1024) are the resolutions you are looking really looking for.  Once you go over 10-bit you either have to increase the physical travel of the stick significantly or you are never going to notice.  It's simply too much for no gain.  Most people have hard time keeping the stick from moving 3/16 of and inch (measured from the trigger) and even then what is the reason to do so?  When I fly I seldom hold the stick in an exact position for more than twenty seconds and that is usually when I am trying to refuel.  When I need it that steady and numb to my inputs I use a script in the Control Manager to change the response curve of the pot and use a mode switch or shifted function to turn toggle it on the fly.  Truth is anything over 10-bit is wasted unless you have the physical travel in the controller to really get some use out of it, and as far as I know no desktop joystick has that travel.  But it looks sexy on a box or a web page, and that's why you hear about it.

So you say "why is the Fighterstick (Combatstick, Flightstick Pro) 8-bit?"  

10-bit is on the wish list.  Hardware changes are simple as long as we stay with an analog pot going to an AtoD converter.  But why stay on a pot?  There is a long list of items that are on the new product development wish list for the next generation of our joysticks.  We have cut some of that development time with the purchase of a Z Corp 3D printer ;) (that was just for you Kermit) as well as a Konica Minolta non contacting 3D digitizer and some serious software.  But that is only half the way.  Molds are made here in San Diego at our factory.  It's not farmed out to China.  So there is still a great deal of time and capitol that has to go into a new controller.  Especially if it has to meet ALL of the requirements of my wish list.  

Software changes are significant no two ways about it.  Currently the our software dev is working on Windows Vista (x86 and 64) versions of the Control Manager.  We felt this was far more pressing.

Ok I am done.  I am going to bed and I will check back here tomorrow.



P.S. Shaky --> Check your PM's :)

Offline Brooke

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« Reply #100 on: May 22, 2007, 01:25:32 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by BaldEagl
Just a thought here and nothing against CH products as I've never owned one . . .


Joinnnnnnn uuuuuuus . . . jOINNNNNNNN uuuuuuus! :)

Offline BaldEagl

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« Reply #101 on: May 22, 2007, 01:34:32 AM »
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Originally posted by Brooke
Joinnnnnnn uuuuuuus . . . jOINNNNNNNN uuuuuuus! :)


:lol I knew I'd get the conspiracy theory thing going with that post.
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Offline Brooke

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« Reply #102 on: May 22, 2007, 01:50:18 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by BaldEagl
:lol I knew I'd get the conspiracy theory thing going with that post.


Heh!  Also, check out Xargos's animated-gif avatar.  I know there are subliminal messages imbedded in that.  I can't figure out which side he's on though.  Illuminatus, Member of the Trilateral Commission, Desciple of J. R. Dobbs . . . ?  We will probably never know.

Offline scottydawg

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« Reply #103 on: May 22, 2007, 06:16:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Citabria
so the 50 pots are 16bit and the 100 pots are 8bit?

and would the 16 bit pot have the 64000 position inputs while the 8 bit has 255?
 


No the 50 and 100 refers to the impedance (ohms) of the pot when fully cranked one direction (there is no impedance at the other direction).  Pots are most commonly used as analog volume controls.  The higher the impedance of a pot, the more discreteness can be decoded by an a/d converter.  The a/d converter is where the magic happens, 8-bit will give you 256 discrete integers and 16 bit will give you 65535 increments.

Offline The Fugitive

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« Reply #104 on: May 22, 2007, 07:27:51 AM »
Fester, this is the hub I use BELKIN.  Works great with no drifting or spiking in my CH stuff, I have all 3 plugged in to it.