Dodging the head-on on the second merge

[Benny Moore]

Of course I have no problem dodging the initial head-on unless the other ship's a four cannon bird.  But after the first merge, if I take the most efficient course and Immelmann, we end up facing each other again and this time at a significantly lower speed.

I find that not only can I not dodge the headon at all at this speed, but I cannot make an amendation to my Immelmann so that we do not quite end up facing each other, without sacrificing enough of an angle that I do not regret it later.  I find that offsetting my nose enough that he can't hit me while still trying to remain in the vertical is just about impossible.

The only thing which I've ever been able to do with this is simply avoid the Immelmann and do a combat turn instead, but if the other guy is as good as I am he will get a small firing window.  I dodge these about half of the time by jinking, but that's not good enough.  Moreover, this usually gets him an angle advantage later because an Immelmann is more efficient than a combat turn.

[evenhaim]

shh benny dont reveal my secrets
-freez

well when we duel i always manage to avoid the 2nd ho sometimes harder to avoid the collision then the ho i think it all depends on the opposing players skill level and attitutde if the claim they are taking a "angle shot "then i get angry.  
wellhopefully hos will one day die out

[Benny Moore]

That we do not spray each other the moment our noses simultaneously come around does not mean that everyone else likewise refrains, unfortunately.

[evenhaim]

yep

[trax1]

Originally posted by evenhaim
well hopefully hos will one day die out

As most of us do, but with all the newbs out there flying it will most likely never happen.

[Benny Moore]

Originally posted by evenhaim
wellhopefully hos will one day die out

Not likely!  Didn't you see Flyboys?  After watching that even I had a guilty urge to go head-on with someone.

[BaldEagl]

Who says an Immelmann or a "combat turn" (whatever that is but I think I get it) is the most efficient first avoidance tactic?

When flying big cannons I HO regularily and if somone trys either of these they are usually mine before we pass.  Forget about coming back around.

[evenhaim]

ive actually been experiment ing with flat turns into the merge but i find the immelin to most fun

[trax1]

Originally posted by BaldEagl
When flying big cannons I HO regularily and if somone trys either of these they are usually mine before we pass.  Forget about coming back around.

No offense intended by this it's just my opinion, but why would you want to HO someone?  I've never understood this tactic.  There just isn't any fun in HO'ing someone, it takes almost no skill to do.  It's more fun to get into a real dog fight with someone then just HO them.  When you HO someone your just as likely to get killed or damage your plane and the fight is over within seconds.  I prefer and find it more fun getting into a good dog fight that might last a few minutes.

[Benny Moore]

Originally posted by BaldEagl
Who says an Immelmann or a "combat turn" (whatever that is but I think I get it) is the most efficient first avoidance tactic?

It is the most energy efficient and the best for gaining a gun solution in the shortest time possible.  It's not very good for avoidance, though, which brings me to my present concern.  If I perform a maneuver that is less energy efficient, I keenly feel the loss later.  In short, the guy who Immelmanns when the other fellow does not has all the cards; he saves more energy and he gets a gun solution briefly on the second merge.  The only counter to an Immelmann that I can see is another Immelmann and a head-on, which is something I do not like to do at all.

Again, the closest I can come to avoiding it, when the pilot is roughly equal to me in skill and is determined to make the shot on the second merge even if it is a head-on, is a combat turn followed by a spiral climb - and even that gives him a short opporunity to fire (although if he misses he is now at a disadvantage).

[WMLute]

Originally posted by Benny Moore
Of course I have no problem dodging the initial head-on unless the other ship's a four cannon bird.  But after the first merge, if I take the most efficient course and Immelmann, we end up facing each other again and this time at a significantly lower speed.

I find that not only can I not dodge the headon at all at this speed, but I cannot make an amendation to my Immelmann so that we do not quite end up facing each other, without sacrificing enough of an angle that I do not regret it later.  I find that offsetting my nose enough that he can't hit me while still trying to remain in the vertical is just about impossible.

The only thing which I've ever been able to do with this is simply avoid the Immelmann and do a combat turn instead, but if the other guy is as good as I am he will get a small firing window.  I dodge these about half of the time by jinking, but that's not good enough.  Moreover, this usually gets him an angle advantage later because an Immelmann is more efficient than a combat turn.

You will rarely ever see me do an immel on a merge.  I much prefer a high yoyo.  A high yoyo gives you more options.  You can gain angle, and you are not floundering at the top of it.  Usually I can do a simple roll at the top and be in position behind the nme.

I have always found the yoyo a bit more flexible.

[Sloehand]

This is hard to explain, but essentially, whether it's the first merge, or the second after vertical loops with the usual intention of rolling into Immelmanns, if I see us going into the head-on aspect at the top of the loops (before one of us rolls the Immelmann) I stay in the loop to entice the bandit to go for the head-on shot. I then avoid it, which is usually quite easy using any kind of slight nose roll to change Plane of Motion on him.  
If he tries to hold and track for the shot, I quickly move to lead turn by pushing the roll into a turn.  This may only give me a small angle advantage if he's observant, (and if I've watched his movement closely), but it's a start.   Obviously, timing and practice make this move effective, and it is.

My rule is, unless I'm outnumbered or in a big furball, and need a quick kill to even the odds, I never go for the HO, but I want him to.

[KG45]

personally, i don't 'want' to HO, but if someone flys in front of my guns, in any way, shape, or form, i'm pulling the trigger.

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by BaldEagl
Who says an Immelmann or a "combat turn" (whatever that is but I think I get it) is the most efficient first avoidance tactic?

When flying big cannons I HO regularily and if somone trys either of these they are usually mine before we pass.  Forget about coming back around.

I win HO's against 110's in Hurricane Mk. 1's.    Just because you have cannon doesn't mean your aim is good.  

As for "Ho'ing regularly", that speaks volumes of how the MA's have deteriorated.

[Tilt]

Originally posted by BaldEagl
or a "combat turn" (whatever that is but I think I get it)

combat turn...........alt gained may vary