Author Topic: Dodging the head-on on the second merge  (Read 3347 times)

Offline SkyRock

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Dodging the head-on on the second merge
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2007, 12:28:23 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bodhi
The biggest and best reward from the HO is the squeaker whine after you kill them.  As for it taking no skill, I disagree.  HO'in and winning takes a lot of skill to master

blah blah blah puke blah!  What a moron!:rolleyes:

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Offline BaldEagl

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Dodging the head-on on the second merge
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2007, 12:30:48 PM »
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
My preferred merge tactic is the combat turn, though it is less efficient than the Immelmann.  But if the other guy Immelmanns and I combat turn, he will briefly get an opportunity to shoot at the top of his Immelmann, since the Immelmann bleeds your speed down to corner turning speed faster than a combat turn.  Of course, I could throttle back at the beginning of my combat turn to get to corner speed faster, but since he's purely vertical and does not need to throttle back, my throttling back will give him the energy advantage.
 

Maybe you're thinking in too simplistic terms.  Think complex acm.

I had a merge with a pair of bogies one night recently that gave me both kills within a few turns.  On the initial merge they were in a sort of wing formation near the deck and didn't split me.  As we merged I started a high yo-yo and as I reached the top of it (half way through) I rolled back and pulled into a full loop.  I'm pretty sure they both lost vis on me because I could see them flat-turning below me as i came over the top.  I also knew that they would be off my right side, out of plane in their merge turns, not in front of or behind me.  This allowed me to drop on one for the kill right away, then it was just a matter of winning a one on one for the second kill.

Just because there's a yo-yo and an immelmann doesn't mean you can't combine them to your advantage or break off of one half way through for a more advantageous move.

I find that thinking in terms of "pure" acm more often than not gets me killed.
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Offline SkyRock

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Dodging the head-on on the second merge
« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2007, 12:37:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by humble
1st and formost a shot taken on a "2nd merge" isnt a "HO" under any definition I know.
   Where do you get this statement?  anyone that is going for the face shot is HOing!~ It doesn't matter on which turn or what arena, if you play thisgame and HO folks, you bring the game down a notch!:aok

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Offline SkyRock

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Dodging the head-on on the second merge
« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2007, 12:39:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by B@tfinkV
bodhi, for instance claims to never find a 2 minute fight anymore, i urge you to stop being retards
nail/head!:aok

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Offline Masherbrum

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Dodging the head-on on the second merge
« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2007, 01:43:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BaldEagl
I Agree.  

I stopped HOing for a couple of camps but 85-90% of people I merged with attempted the HO.  I'm actually a good shot on the HO and win 80-85% of the time with no damage so I just got sick of trying to be honerable and went back to it.  I particularily like HOing Nikis.

[EDIT]  I've rarely HO'd a good pilot.  Why?  Other than the DA where cold merges are the norm if you're not getting seperation at the merge you are either setting up to HO or to be HO'd.  Why people fly directly at an oncoming plane continues to baffle me.


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Offline Benny Moore

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Dodging the head-on on the second merge
« Reply #35 on: May 22, 2007, 01:54:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by TequilaChaser
how so? explain please


An Immelmann is the maneuver which brings you to your corner turning speed the fastest without you having to throttle back.  Since you don't throttle back, rather slowing down by trading speed for altitude, you do not lose as much energy as, say, a flat turn.  In a flat turn, of course, you're just pulling gees and blowing energy, gaining only angle.  In an Immelmann, you pull gees and blow some energy, yes, but you keep more of your energy than you do in a flat turn because you're trading a lot of that speed for altitude.

A combat turn is half-way between an Immelmann and a flat turn.  It's half vertical, half horizontal.  Therefore, it saves more energy than a flat turn, but isn't quite as energy-efficient as an Immelmann.  It can spare you the prospect of going head-on at the second merge, but since it is slightly less energy-efficient than an Immelmann, the flier who Immelmanns will always get a small opportunity to fire at the flier who does a combat turn.  As I said, I try to dodge that and have moderate success at dodging that one shot.  If I do dodge it, he is almost certainly mine, for he has blown all of his energy for that one shot and is about to stall.

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Offline Simaril

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Dodging the head-on on the second merge
« Reply #36 on: May 22, 2007, 01:59:28 PM »
I suffer from 3DVIS (3D Visualization Impairment Syndrome), which makes my gunnery stinky and my ACM way too inflexible, at least until I get really really comfortable with a move. I have a BFM question:

Can anyone help me understand the difference between a combat turn/ pitchback and a chandelle? Or are they the same thing?






And BTW: I don't like HOing because I can't see the point in giving the opponent an easy firing solution. If they try on the first merge, I've won the angles battle. (Note that dioesn't mean I get the kill, because....my gunnery is stinky). On a low energy, low option merge (like the 2nd merge Benny describes), it only takes a quarter roll and mild flight path deflection to be 95% safe from any damage, provided you see it coming early enough to make that move result in a little separation.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2007, 02:04:43 PM by Simaril »
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Offline Benny Moore

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Dodging the head-on on the second merge
« Reply #37 on: May 22, 2007, 02:15:47 PM »
Would you care to join me in Blue Sky sometime and we can knock our heads together in a friendly manner?

Offline Simaril

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Dodging the head-on on the second merge
« Reply #38 on: May 22, 2007, 02:35:20 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Benny Moore
Would you care to join me in Blue Sky sometime and we can knock our heads together in a friendly manner?


Such activity i susually most enjoyable!
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Offline evenhaim

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Dodging the head-on on the second merge
« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2007, 02:45:22 PM »
for every hour i spend in the ma i spend 3-4 in h2h or DA depends for me its about honor and i hope when some of these "hoers" grow up they wil learn the truth about duieling :)
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Offline SkyRock

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Dodging the head-on on the second merge
« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2007, 03:28:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by evenhaim
for every hour i spend in the ma i spend 3-4 in h2h or DA depends for me its about honor and i hope when some of these "hoers" grow up they wil learn the truth about duieling :)

SkyRock<---slpas Freez for bringing down the skill level of the DA by being there!
:aok

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Offline Murdr

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Dodging the head-on on the second merge
« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2007, 03:36:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Benny Moore
A combat turn is half-way between an Immelmann and a flat turn..

That's a "pitchback".

For your orignal question/scenerio....It's hard to give a specific answer but, I am evaluating and setting up for my next merge 1/2 way through the first turn.  I only want to nose on if Im sure I have the first shot opportunity.  If that isnt the case, the idea is to not reverse directly into their guns, but to make them chase you with their nose into the next merge (which means your course is slightly off angle of theirs).  That itself narrows the shot opportunity window.  With good timing, you'll have your lift vector set for the next intended turn, and can also incorporate the enterence into your next turn as part of denying the merge shot.

There are too many varibles to be more specific, but while there are some situations where there is no way to avoid a 2nd merge HO, I find it the exception and not the rule with the varying methods I use.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2007, 03:44:11 PM by Murdr »

Offline CAP1

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Dodging the head-on on the second merge
« Reply #42 on: May 22, 2007, 03:57:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by evenhaim
shh benny dont reveal my secrets
-freez

 
wellhopefully hos will one day die out


well....if i'm thinking right, they CAN.....and WOULD.....if the powers that be would simply turn off damage for that angle.......they used to do it ages ago in AW3 if i recall....so wiht this much more advanced sim, it would seem the best thing to do.:aok

also, benny........any nights you might be available in the TA to help a somewhat noob learn to avoid it? it seems that everuything i try to avoid it GIVES my opponent a shot at me. so far my best avoidence is to dive under him, but when he sees me doing that, he also dives.....then....WAMMO!!!!! i get the white collision mesage from whoever it was. and take a lot of damage too....which i thought wasn't supposed to happen......but anyway.......there's my 2 cents......now i'm broke again!!:rofl
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Offline CAP1

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Dodging the head-on on the second merge
« Reply #43 on: May 22, 2007, 03:59:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by BaldEagl
Who says an Immelmann or a "combat turn" (whatever that is but I think I get it) is the most efficient first avoidance tactic?

When flying big cannons I HO regularily and if somone trys either of these they are usually mine before we pass.  Forget about coming back around.


this is what i just posted asking about........how does one avoid this then sir?:D
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Offline CAP1

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Dodging the head-on on the second merge
« Reply #44 on: May 22, 2007, 04:17:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Benny Moore


I have no problem getting my nose around in time for the shot if I Immelmann, and I'm not losing sight of the enemy.  My problem is that I am not satisfied with a head-on shot, because every successful H.O. is one fight you'll never have and a learning experience lost (not to mention it's not fun for either of you).  So I'm trying to figure out a way of making an energy-efficient maneuver after the merge that won't end up in a head-on pass, and also will not give him a firing opportunity.


 
[/QUOTE

benny......i see your point........not that it matters.......but i think you're missing 1 serious point.........i see a LOT of guys in here that have fun just killin fast like that. i could name a couple that seem to get their rocks off on doin that, or diving from a 10k alt advantage, kill ya, then THEY come on 200 tellin ya how much ya s^%k...and i think the names wouldn't surprise too many of the pilots here as it seems to always be the same ones too,. thye seem to prefer the easy way. and...yes...i'm guilty too.......if i'm pilot wounded, or heavy damage, or been fired on first......my score though does reflect my skill(lack thereof):rofl  and i wish i could find some really good fight so i could learn better. i'm finally tryin to jump outta my hurri2 and phlegm fighter into the 38.....loved the 38 in AW3, but can't fight in it here....yet.
 COACH is a good example of an honorable pilot i think......me in 38j him in typhoon.......i messed up tryin to NOT give him a shot, and actually gave him the most perfect oppurtunity to ho me......instead he just flew by me, and grabbed his alt back........to kill me a couple minutes later:lol  although i was momentarily P/O'd that i died in that fight, i DID have fun, and <> to coach for a fun fight too.......

 one last thing.........if you're feelin kind one evening, and would like to help anyone in the 38...........PIKC ME!!!!PICK ME!!!!!!! I'LL have fun learnin either in DA or TA from a good 38 driver.......

:aok
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