Dodging the head-on on the second merge

[Shuffler]

No one move works for all planes..... in several planes it is more important to kill your E, at least to a certain point so you can turn fight. So what plane are you flying?

[FiLtH]

The only time I see immelmans in the game are in the dueling arena. When fighting the same plane. In the main arena it seems the fights go another direction for me. But I do know what you mean about the perpetual headon aspect you get by repeated immels. Try some throttle control even if its when vertical.

[TequilaChaser]

Originally posted by Tilt
combat turn...........alt gained may vary

Pitchback  similar to a Hi yoyo

Sliceback - similar to low yoyo

[Bodhi]

Originally posted by trax1
No offense intended by this it's just my opinion, but why would you want to HO someone?  I've never understood this tactic.  There just isn't any fun in HO'ing someone, it takes almost no skill to do.  It's more fun to get into a real dog fight with someone then just HO them.  When you HO someone your just as likely to get killed or damage your plane and the fight is over within seconds.  I prefer and find it more fun getting into a good dog fight that might last a few minutes.

The biggest and best reward from the HO is the squeaker whine after you kill them.  As for it taking no skill, I disagree.  HO'in and winning takes a lot of skill to master and be able to stay damage free and avoid the collision.  

As for a long two minute turn fight... lmfao.  Where do you find those nowadays.  Everytime I get involved in a turn fight, about 5 or so nme pile on top of it, severely limiting my options.

[humble]

1st and formost a shot taken on a "2nd merge" isnt a "HO" under any definition I know. If you find yourself getting tagged on a regular baisis then a couple of points apply...

1) your losing sight of the other guy. Very good duelers (I'm certainly not one) are readjusting all the time thruout the merge...

2) your flying perdictably, good openers are never true Immelmans. In a duel you can go either angles or E opener, if your flying a max speed true emmelman your flying about the worst possible merge....basically a "tweener". Many of the really tough duelers open with 45 degree or even flat "turns" with a variety of throttle work and adjustments to what you do.

I'd say that the other guy is simply flying to the top of your immelman from an out of plane perspective (relevent to you) and popping you in the front quarter as you come over....

[B@tfinkV]

i hear you benny, but i find myself sweetly above this problem.

in the main arena i never merge head on, i usually give my tail (read: i fly LOW) and make a reversal. most of the suckers take the bait and cant even hit the six shot i give, let alone hit me head on slim profile. after they have missed that chance and the reversal is on, very rarely do they get another gun solution.


for dueling, if i fight someone and we do the standard (boring) E fighting merge, and they choose to blaze away on the second merge......then i say 'good shooting, wow, you owned me' and log off.


it is truly a gold nugget in the pig sty when i fight someone who hold fire untill one of us earns a proper advantage and respectable gun solution.


anyone not know what this is like, bodhi, for instance claims to never find a 2 minute fight anymore, i urge you to stop being retards and go find a real fight with someone good in the DA.

[BaldEagl]

Originally posted by trax1
No offense intended by this it's just my opinion, but why would you want to HO someone?  I've never understood this tactic.  There just isn't any fun in HO'ing someone, it takes almost no skill to do.  It's more fun to get into a real dog fight with someone then just HO them.  When you HO someone your just as likely to get killed or damage your plane and the fight is over within seconds.  I prefer and find it more fun getting into a good dog fight that might last a few minutes.

There are several reasons.  Among them:

I'm in an outnumbered area and want to get rid of as many bogies as I can as quickly as possible.

I'm OTW to some "destination" and don't want some idiot dogging me all the way.

I'm in a b'n'z type against a t'n'b type (why would I turn with him?)

Some squeaker noob opens up from 2K out on my low 12 and I teach them a quick lesson.

These are just a few.

I bet if you sat in with any pilot in this game, even the most self-richeous "I don't ever HO" guys, they occasionally HO.  If they don't they are missing opportunities.

[BaldEagl]

Originally posted by Masherbrum
As for "Ho'ing regularly", that speaks volumes of how the MA's have deteriorated.

I Agree.  

I stopped HOing for a couple of camps but 85-90% of people I merged with attempted the HO.  I'm actually a good shot on the HO and win 80-85% of the time with no damage so I just got sick of trying to be honerable and went back to it.  I particularily like HOing Nikis.

[EDIT]  I've rarely HO'd a good pilot.  Why?  Other than the DA where cold merges are the norm if you're not getting seperation at the merge you are either setting up to HO or to be HO'd.  Why people fly directly at an oncoming plane continues to baffle me.

[Toad]

Originally posted by Bodhi
As for a long two minute turn fight... lmfao.  Where do you find those nowadays.  

I usually find them in EW and MW almost every night. There can be some gangin' but it's the exception not the rule.

Cya there!

[SkyRock]

Originally posted by BaldEagl
I HO regularily

Loser tactics for a game about acm!!!!  

[Rino]

I take the shot that is presented, if you fly right into me...why get a free
pass?  The thing I find annoying is when
someone is flying a higher better turning aircraft and flies for the HO.

[Benny Moore]

Originally posted by humble
1st and formost a shot taken on a "2nd merge" isnt a "HO" under any definition I know. If you find yourself getting tagged on a regular baisis then a couple of points apply...

1) your losing sight of the other guy. Very good duelers (I'm certainly not one) are readjusting all the time thruout the merge...

2) your flying perdictably, good openers are never true Immelmans. In a duel you can go either angles or E opener, if your flying a max speed true emmelman your flying about the worst possible merge....basically a "tweener". Many of the really tough duelers open with 45 degree or even flat "turns" with a variety of throttle work and adjustments to what you do.

I'd say that the other guy is simply flying to the top of your immelman from an out of plane perspective (relevent to you) and popping you in the front quarter as you come over....

I think you misunderstood my situation.  When the other pilot is roughly the same skill level as me, and we both Immelman, we both come around at exactly the same time and we both get gun solution.  It's a head-on in every sense of the word - except that I choose not to shoot.  Instead, I jink hard, rolling a few degrees and pulling (or, if I do not have enough energy, pushing) for a second or two.

I have no problem getting my nose around in time for the shot if I Immelmann, and I'm not losing sight of the enemy.  My problem is that I am not satisfied with a head-on shot, because every successful H.O. is one fight you'll never have and a learning experience lost (not to mention it's not fun for either of you).  So I'm trying to figure out a way of making an energy-efficient maneuver after the merge that won't end up in a head-on pass, and also will not give him a firing opportunity.

My preferred merge tactic is the combat turn, though it is less efficient than the Immelmann.  But if the other guy Immelmanns and I combat turn, he will briefly get an opportunity to shoot at the top of his Immelmann, since the Immelmann bleeds your speed down to corner turning speed faster than a combat turn.  Of course, I could throttle back at the beginning of my combat turn to get to corner speed faster, but since he's purely vertical and does not need to throttle back, my throttling back will give him the energy advantage.

By the way, I fly P-38 and P-47.  If anyone feels like demonstrating anything to me, please say so and I'll try to arrange a time that we can meet in my head-to-head server.

[Red Tail 444]

Originally posted by B@tfinkV
anyone not know what this is like, bodhi, for instance claims to never find a 2 minute fight anymore, i urge you to stop being retards and go find a real fight with someone good in the DA.

Some are to obusy patting themselves on the back for an HO or pick victory, than to accept a challenge to fight on even terms in the DA, unfortunately.

After a few good fights that ended with  picks from  allies/enemies, Vudak and I dueled several times in the DA. No HOs, and I learned a few new things. Some people are too enamored with themselves over a cartoon victory to try and learn something new.

[crockett]

If you pre-turn the first HO early enough, you shouldn't have to worry about a HO on the second pass. The only way he should be able to HO you again , is if he extends the fight, runs away then turns.

At least that's what I've found.

[TequilaChaser]

Originally posted by Benny Moore

My preferred merge tactic is the combat turn, though it is less efficient than the Immelmann.  

how so? explain please

 

Originally posted by Benny Moore
But if the other guy Immelmanns and I combat turn, he will briefly get an opportunity to shoot at the top of his Immelmann, since the Immelmann bleeds your speed down to corner turning speed faster than a combat turn.  Of course, I could throttle back at the beginning of my combat turn to get to corner speed faster, but since he's purely vertical and does not need to throttle back, my throttling back will give him the energy advantage.
 

If you already know ( read that as you already thinking it ) then yes you gonna be behind on the angles curve........but since you are reading this far into it, why not adjust your combat turn ( ie PITCHBACK  or  Hi Yoyo ) to where you can maintain your E more so than he can and have some in reserve to help you on the 2nd nose to nose merge.........