Dodging the head-on on the second merge

[Benny Moore]

There's one other type of head-on situation that most people don't recognize.  This is where both fliers have the opportunity to shoot at each other simulataneously, as in a normal head-on firing pass, but one of them gallantly holds his fire.  He moves his nose slightly away from his opponent to avoid an eventual collision, and as soon as he does so, the other flier sees that the first pilot no longer has gun solution - and shoots.

Now, a lot of H.O. lovers say that this was not a head-on, since they didn't both have gun solution.  In my book, it was, because they did both have gun solution, and at the same time.  One pilot only passed up the shot out of courtesy, and got burned for it.

The solution for the honorable flier is to keep his speed higher and increase the angle between his flight path and the enemy.  However, the situation is most often found in duels between pilots who are not accustomed to fighting each other, immediately after the first merge.  It's usually after both pilots have completed an Immelmann, and thus dodging is not an option due to the slow speed.  Therefore, the solution is to not Immelmann if the other pilot also does so (or at least change the maneuver as soon as you realize it).

The solution for the player who doesn't hold his fire is to realize that the other guy let him have the shot.  It's as simple as that.  If he confronts you about it, don't try to pretend that it wasn't a head-on because he didn't have firing solution.  He did, and it was.  

This thread was not started to debate the validity, effectiveness, or courtesy of head-ons.  It was started to discuss avoidance.  I just had to clear up that one misunderstanding which I see so many have.

[Stoney74]

Originally posted by Simaril
Stoney:

I know there's a difference of opinion about this, but I think that especially in a multi-con environment its important to realize that there's a difference between a HO and a front quarter deflection shot.

Agreed Sim...  I just disagree with the notion that being outnumbered makes it somewhat more "morally" justifiable to shoot someone in the face.  

I also agree with Benny regarding the second merge.  If a guy gets around on me quicker, no problem if he has a shot and I don't.  But if we both have shots, there's no advantage gained by either.  I don't tend to think of it as a matter of "more honorable" or "gallant" that you don't take the shot.  I think of it purely a matter of protecting my ride so I can shoot down more than one guy a mission and actually land.

Sorry for the hijack Benny...

[hammer]

Originally posted by Benny Moore
I think you misunderstood my situation.  When the other pilot is roughly the same skill level as me, and we both Immelman, we both come around at exactly the same time and we both get gun solution.  It's a head-on in every sense of the word - except that I choose not to shoot.  Instead, I jink hard, rolling a few degrees and pulling (or, if I do not have enough energy, pushing) for a second or two.

If you end up nose to nose on an immelman merge, then you either failed to get good vertical flight path separation or your opponent is in a better turning plane and doing an immelman (or any turn) is not necessarily the best tactic to use against him.

You must be lower than your opponent at the start of an immelman merge. This allows you to pull a lead turn up into the enemy and you gain your angle advantage there. Otherwise you will end up in a one circle fight with continuous nose-to-nose passes. While your opponent can negate your flight path separation by going nose down towards you, the resulting increase in his speed (going down) and decrease in your speed (going up) should allow you to pull a tighter turn and still get the shot opportunity.

Regards,

Hammer

[hammer]

Originally posted by Murdr
HO's were part of combat in WWII, but the extent at which they are relied on in AH is on the ridiculous side.   Aside from the heavy US iron vs the lightly armored Japaneese planes, pilots did not intentionally place themselves in the opponents guns for a 'crap shoot' like most AH players do.

I think we can blame Quake and a lot of other FPS for the HO mentality. It's how you play those games - put the crosshair on the enemy, pull the trigger, and hope he dies first.

[B@tfinkV]

blame FPS games?  maybe true..

in my experience, the vast majority of human beings are very much like electricity, the path of least resistance is the most likely to be followed.

[BaldEagl]

Originally posted by Stoney74
You want to take that challenge to see how well you can do--well, that's one thing.  But, and I don't mean this in an inflamatory way because I typically respect how you conduct yourself, but take it how you will...How many of 'em do you HO to "even the odds"?

Well, thank you for the compliment Stoney.  

The answer to your question is as many as are willing to fly into my gunpath, whether that be a true HO, a forward deflection, a snapshot, a 6 shot or whatever.  The exception is if I'm forced to turn by someone else before getting the shot off (i.e. what helps me more, killing the guy in front of me or avoiding the guy behind me).  In an outnumbered environment I WILL take down as many enemies as possible as quickly as possible by whatever means possible to even the odds.

Bat, I agree.  I was talking about turn fighting on the deck in a swarm of red, not cherry-picking the fringes from 2K above.

[B@tfinkV]

Originally posted by BaldEagl

 (i.e. what helps me more, killing the guy in front of me or avoiding the guy behind me).  

this is a very good point and in our game its one of the top catch 22 situations.


how many times have you found yourself in a 3 on 1 gangbang with, lets say, a spit16 an la7 and a nik2j? i know i have alot. now during this fight, any gun solution you miss or choose not to take could proove to be the reason you die 20 seconds later.

ive been in more fights than i can remember where i have made a nice solution on the [nik2j] and missed, then intantly forced to avoid the [spit16] on my tail, the overshoot and killing the [spit16] first chance. Now im avoiding the [la7] on my tail. i work the [la7] out infront and am about to pull the trigger when the [nik2j] comes tearing back round a half circle and shoots me down.

had i made that first shot i would have earnt 3 kills. missing meant i only got one kill and died right after.

in a way it is the same for a HO in this scenario. you choose not to HO the [nik2j] and in doing so get shot down by it a few seconds later as you fight the other two. personaly, i would still not take this shot. not so much out of honourbale intentions, mostly because overtime i developed an instant reaction to avoid the HO not shoot the HO, to the extent where if i do go for a HO shot i miss terribly as im so unacustomed to the technique of the HO shot.

well, forgive the wall of text, but i geuss all i mean is i agree with you on that point, and yet despite my prior knoledge of what will happen if i let the [nik2j] live, i still refuse to take the pure HO shot in 99% of all engagements.


that being said i dont look down on the outnumbered pilot if he/she chooses to HO me when im in the gang. i might not send an S! or whatever but i certainly would not whine about it.

if it was a definite 1 on 1 fight with a 6k to HO on merge, then yeah im gunna chew someones ear off about it, and let them know how i feel about the waste of time we just endured.

[Benny Moore]

Originally posted by hammer
If you end up nose to nose on an immelman merge, then you either failed to get good vertical flight path separation or your opponent is in a better turning plane and doing an immelman (or any turn) is not necessarily the best tactic to use against him.

That he is in a better turning fighter is almost a given, since I fly P-38 and P-47 and not a great deal of fighters turn worse than those.  I realize that it's poor tactics to turn fight a Spitfire in my P-47, but none the less I do it for the challenge, and because I enjoy it - and also because I can, more often than not.  However, it does lead to head-ons a lot, which is why I was wondering how best to merge to avoid them.

Next time I duel Freezman I'll try to film our first two or three merges.

[B@tfinkV]

in the following .AHF film, make sure you note the absolute lack of HO's of any kind.

this kind of flying is what inspired me years ago to learn some moves and forget about just killing the enemy. i wanted to kill the enemy in ways that made me go 'wow, damn, that was sweet' to myself.


When you reach the level of experience, know-how, grace, fluid manouvers and generaly raw hard practiced talent of someone like BluKitty, Head Ons will be as if they never existed.


BLUKITTY 5 MINUTE FURBALL CLIP film link


i think we can all agree, that flying just makes you say 'OMFG'


anyone who thinks HO fighting is a skill, the above film will laugh in your face(shot)

[evenhaim]

hehe blues got mad kitty skillz we already knew that all

hey bat u up for some duels? i typically am training peeps on thursday in the H2h room furballers.com
u know buot dom and bighorns dueling sight right?
furballers.com
look me up

[B@tfinkV]

yeah but everytime i log in its empty and dom is afk. i seem to be more likely to bump into him in other arenas. what name is bovihorn using?
domin/acmkraft used to be creton, right?

[Creton]

No,Bat,

Domin and Bovi are compeltely different people from me,Domin is a newer player to the game who prefers 1v1 duels,and of course we all know who Bovi is ,if we can just keep up with his new name.

My names have been
97VICTOR
VIC
SPOOK
QUACHITA
CRETON

and my new variation is,Sythian.

[JimBeam]

cretons alive!!!!!!:D
good to see ya bud ....... now dont hurt me:noid

[Benny Moore]

Oh, hello Creton!  It has been very long since we duelled.  That was still probably the best Me-109 flying I've ever seen (though EAce is also very good).

[Toad]

I met this gentleman at his Flight School Class's (43-C) reunion, held at our CAF hangar. These guys all started in PT-19's and we got 3 -19's together to give them all rides.

Dick Hewitt engaged two FW-190's (on separate missons) with true HO tactics. His comment to me was "we couldn't let them get to the bombers".

Read his book: " Target of Opportunity - Tales and Contrails of the Second World War"

Richard A. Hewitt, a second year college engineering student in New York State, like so many Americans after the December 7, 1941 Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, chose to volunteer for service to his country. He joined the Army Air Corps in February, 1942. As a member of the Army Aviation Cadet Class, 43-C, Dick was commissioned as a second Lieutenant and received his wings on March 23, 1943.

After further training, he was assigned in the ETO to the 78th Fighter Group, 82nd Fighter Squadron, stationed at Duxford, Cambridgeshire, England, in September, 1943. Dick flew a total of 144 combat missions, combining a total of 400 hours of combat in the P-47 Thunderbolt and P-51 Mustang fighter aircraft.

During his combat tours with the 82nd, spanning over two years, he was credited with 8.3 victories, including 4 in the air; promoted to the rank of Major; awarded the Air Medal with 17 oak leaf clusters, awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross with 4 oak leaf clusters, and the Silver Star. He commanded the 82nd Fighter Squadron from March, 1945 through June, 1945.

HO's were used. For the life of me, I can't see why people make it a big deal here. If you have E, they are avoidable and the other guy is giving you an opportunity for angles. If you don't have E, you already made the first mistake. Do some of that pilot stuff, Mav.


As for Chandelle's, the "textbook" chandelle goes like this
:

The chandelle sounds deceptively simple; turn 180 degrees while gaining as much altitude as possible. Since the airplane is climbing and slowing down, the rate of turn increases as the maneuver progresses, which requires constantly changing elevator, aileron and rudder input. The chandelle ends with airplane headed in the opposite direction with wings level, several hundred feet higher, and with the stall warning blaring away. Since you end at minimum controllable airspeed, maintaining coordinated flight throughout the maneuver is a must.

While such a maneuver can put you in great position on your opponent, I'm personally not sure I want to be in the usual MA environment with the stall horn blaring away. I do that, but I find that in our busy environment being just above a stall for any length of time is an invitation to others to hose you down with lots of lead.