WWII Inline engines: Daimler Benz vs Rolls Royce vs Allison vs Klimov vs Jumo

[Viking]

Nothing "exotic" about C3 fuel. It was the standard fuel of the radial engined 190's and was available since before the BoB. The controversy over 109’s using C3 is that since the 190’s could only use C3 they got priority while the 109’s got the lower-grade B4 fuel.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Exactly. There's nothing "exotic" about 150 either. Except here. There's nothing mysterious about the settings on the P-51 and P-38 when run on 150 either. Except here.

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
Kev, pg 174 of the Prien/Rodeike 109 book has a pic of a K-4 of 11./JG3 with the C3 decal showing clearly.

Even Butch said nothing too much should be read into that.

Thread on the allaboutwarfare website, and here I think also.

[Benny Moore]

Wait, "Viking" is Kurfurst?  That explains everything.

Hilts, what was that quote again about Kurfurst logic?  "Cleared = used by the LW = NOT used by the Allies."  You're only allowed high end stuff if it's German, even if they only "might" have used it while Allied forces definitely did.

[Viking]

Again your inability to read or comprehend even the simplest of texts has led you astray. I have no idea whether 150 octane fuel was used by the allies or not, and I have never commented on it.

[Karnak]

If the Allison was so obviously superior to the Merlin, why did nobody suggest replacing the Spitfire's Merlin with an Allison instead of the Mustang's Allison with a Merlin?

[_733]

Originally posted by Kev367th
Oh I wish someone could actually come up with one document that proves that K-4's ever used C3.

And yes I have seen Kurfursts site, no definitive proof there either.
"Assume", "safely assume", and "probably" just don't just cut it.

OTOH we have docs showing that both the XIV and LF IX (XVI) used 150 octane from mid 44, can't get them either.

What fuel 109 could use depended on what DB605 engine it had. Given the war situation late 109s could have any of these engines depending the availability:

DB605 ASM; B4 w/ MW-50, C3 w/o MW-50
DB605 ASB; B4 w/ MW-50, C3 w/o  MW-50
DB605 ASC; C3 always w/ MW-50
DB605 DB; B4 w/ MW-50, C3 w/o MW-50
DB605 DC; C3 always w/ MW-50

(source: ISBN 951-95688-7-5 ; Messerschmitt BF 109 and Germany's war economy)

-teemu

[_733]

Originally posted by CAP1
another question out of curiousity??

i thought i had heard somewhere that the BMW radials were actually a pratt & whitney built under lience.....which was arranged before the war?

sounds nuts, but wondering?

from Wikipedia:
"In the 1930s, BMW took out a license to build the Pratt & Whitney Hornet engines. By the mid-30s they had introduced an improved version, the BMW 132. The 132 was widely used, most notably on the Junkers Ju 52, which it powered for much of that design's lifetime."

801 that powered 190 wasn't lisence built P&W, but i'm sure that some of the 132's useful design features were incorporated in it.

-teemy

[Kev367th]

Originally posted by Benny Moore
Wait, "Viking" is Kurfurst?  That explains everything.

Hilts, what was that quote again about Kurfurst logic?  "Cleared = used by the LW = NOT used by the Allies."  You're only allowed high end stuff if it's German, even if they only "might" have used it while Allied forces definitely did.

Actualy Kurfy had some good info, it was his logic that was a bit, erm,,,,, skewed.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by Benny Moore
Wait, "Viking" is Kurfurst?  That explains everything.

Hilts, what was that quote again about Kurfurst logic?  "Cleared = used by the LW = NOT used by the Allies."  You're only allowed high end stuff if it's German, even if they only "might" have used it while Allied forces definitely did.

Naw, Viking ain't Kurfurst, I'll give him credit for that. Viking is GScholz.

And that quote ain't mine.

[MiloMorai]

Originally posted by Kev367th
Even Butch said nothing too much should be read into that.

Thread on the allaboutwarfare website, and here I think also.

He did? Never saw such.

One can call 100/150 fuel exotic as it was only use in the ETO. Percentage wise it was produced in low quantity compared to 100/130 fuel. C3 is certainly not an exotic fuel with 2/3 of all German avgas being of the C3 grade.

Virgil, that quote is part of the sig of one called luftluuver over at the Ubi Il-2 forums:

Some dude: 'cleared' = used by the LW = NOT used by the Allies;
2 is 'quite a few ships',
112 is 'well over a hundred'

Supposidly the the Mods did not like Kurfurst name in the sig so changed it to 'some dude'.

[Angus]

Originally posted by Karnak
If the Allison was so obviously superior to the Merlin, why did nobody suggest replacing the Spitfire's Merlin with an Allison instead of the Mustang's Allison with a Merlin?

LOL, good point!

Anyway, funny to see that Kuffies ghost is still haunting us

[MiloMorai]

There was also a proposal to replace the P-38's Allisons with Merlins. Since Allison was a division of GM, lobbying in Washington by GM had it squashed.

[Angus]

I thought it was the weight?

Always wondered though

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Originally posted by MiloMorai
There was also a proposal to replace the P-38's Allisons with Merlins. Since Allison was a division of GM, lobbying in Washington by GM had it squashed.

The study Lockheed did showed a reduced climb rate, and installation problems, including weight. Above 26,000 feet, the P-38 would have been slower, and suffered a serious reduction in climb. It wasn't lobbying by GM in Washington. The War Production Board wouldn't even allow Lockheed to stop production long enough to change to Hamilton Standard props, so swapping to the Merlin, even if it were a good swap, was never an option. Yes, Knudsen, who held a seat on the War Production Board, was a GM stockholder.