Dueling displeasures

[ink]

i will say real quick though in a duel is a faster speed realy advantage?

the slower plane will always out turn the faster one

no matter what type of plane

[SkyRock]

Originally posted by ink
ive dueled skyrock{even though im not on list:cry }

 he was awesome  and nothing like his MA persona, i have also dueled others and it seems like everyone has there own rules,  

because of this thread i now understand the rules a little better,  

equal alt until vis...

i was DAing not understanding that aspect of the merge... wondering why the stick i was dueling was trying to get under me on merge...

now i understand

skyrock your prettythang is in trouble


 

Ink, you the hurri guy?   I was actually tryiing to remember your name but couldnt!  Very good fights !    
If you want to know what the general rules of engagements are in the DA, then read Shane's post!

 Mark

[JimBeam]

< pwned SkyRock in DA:rofl

[Sloehand]

OK, as much as it pains me, and without viewing any film as to what EXACT and EXPLICITLY was understood and agreed upon, but based simply on standard and established practise in the DA, I think Bodhi's expectations may have been a little unreasonable, though he may not have realized it at the time.  

All pilots who regularly duel know to try for vertical separation once close visual contact is made.  This has always been allowed and has never been an issue that I can remember.  Pilots separate, then call out "turning in" at roughly 4-5K range separation and head back towards each other Co-Alt.  Somewhere at 2K or less (because most pilots don't want to give away their moves too soon) it is standard practise to attempt to gain some vertical separation with a shallow dive, at which point the opponent usually knows to counter with a dive of his own, thus ending up at nearly the same alt at the time of passing.  

This is because the ACM rule is - on a Co-Alt merge never let your opponent get below you.  For anyone who has been dueling in the DA extensively this is almost instinctual and unavoidable, not a concerted attempt to cheat.  

However, Skyrock is wrong in his posted comment that by being 100 or 200 ft. higher, Bodhi actually had the advantage.  In such a dueling merge, the small advantage is to the LOWER pilot, who can now turn inside his opponent as they execute their Lead Turns.

[dedalos]

Cheater

[Sloehand]

Originally posted by Shane

now #2 means that when icon is acquired, you can climb, dive, turn, do whatever... most better pilot will try and get under the opponent for 2 reasons, first being that you'll generally have more speed, hence, e to do whatveer comes next, and secondly, going under allows you to more quickly reacquire the target in your rear up view and react accordingly.
 

Just a little clarity needed here.

While both these reasons may be valid, and contribute to why a pilot might want to go low under his opponent, they are separately or together, NOT the reason a pilot should go low in the merge.

The significantly more important reason is to gain vertical separation prior to the moment of the merge, SO AS to acquire the necessary turning room for a  Lead Turn after the pass, which will be inside of the opponent's Lead Turn.

[SkyRock]

Originally posted by Sloehand
OK, as much as it pains me, and without viewing any film as to what EXACT and EXPLICITLY was understood and agreed upon, but based simply on standard and established practise in the DA, I think Bodhi's expectations may have been a little unreasonable, though he may not have realized it at the time.  

All pilots who regularly duel know to try for vertical separation once close visual contact is made.  This has always been allowed and has never been an issue that I can remember.  Pilots separate, then call out "turning in" at roughly 4-5K range separation and head back towards each other Co-Alt.  Somewhere at 2K or less (because most pilots don't want to give away their moves too soon) it is standard practise to attempt to gain some vertical separation with a shallow dive, at which point the opponent usually knows to counter with a dive of his own, thus ending up at nearly the same alt at the time of passing.  

This is because the ACM rule is - on a Co-Alt merge never let your opponent get below you.  For anyone who has been dueling in the DA extensively this is almost instinctual and unavoidable, not a concerted attempt to cheat.  

However, Skyrock is wrong in his posted comment that by being 100 or 200 ft. higher, Bodhi actually had the advantage.  In such a dueling merge, the small advantage is to the LOWER pilot, who can now turn inside his opponent as they execute their Lead Turns.

Slap, being 100 feet above your opponent and 50mph faster is definitely and advantage.  It's not what I would want but it is considered an "E" advantage!  If I am below a guy on merge I feel comfortable!  It is how I was taught in dueling!

[SkyRock]

Originally posted by Sloehand
Just a little clarity needed here.

While both these reasons may be valid, and contribute to why a pilot might want to go low under his opponent, they are separately or together, NOT the reason a pilot should go low in the merge.

The significantly more important reason is to gain vertical separation prior to the moment of the merge, SO AS to acquire the necessary turning room for a  Lead Turn after the pass, which will be inside of the opponent's Lead Turn.

The reason why you want to be below the guy on merge is very simple.  Lets say P1 is below P2 when they pass, then both go vert.   Who will be behind who???  P1 will be behind/lower than P2!  It is much easier to follow the guys angles and predict what he is going to do If you don't have to look out your 6 constantly!  Not to mention if you get around quick, you will have guns on the guy!  It's that simple!  I know there is more to it as far as ACM and tactics are concerned, but just in laymen's concepts, the lower guy gets the 6 position if both go up after pass!

[Toad]

I don't think anyone can find a set of hard and fast rules for dueling.

The rules are whatever you agreed to when  you set the match with the other guy.

That said, I usually request/agree to what WxMan posted. After all, the idea is to see who is best when all things are equal, or as close to equal, as possible.

Dive on merge is a distinct advantage if your opponent doesn't match the effort.

WxMan laid out about the best system for starting the duel as close to equal as possible.

But... the rules are whatever you agree to do, even if that's no rules at all.

Originally posted by WxMan
Although it's been years since I have dueled. The rules at that time insured that neither plane had a significant advantage. That is why an alt cap before the merge is usually in place. In addition no aggressive moves can take place that deviates from the merge level until both aircraft passes their respective 3-9 lines.  That meant no diving or climbing or early turns, you both stayed at excatly the same alt until you passed each other.

But then again I'm an old fossil.

[Shamus]

Originally posted by WxMan
Although it's been years since I have dueled. The rules at that time insured that neither plane had a significant advantage. That is why an alt cap before the merge is usually in place. In addition no aggressive moves can take place that deviates from the merge level until both aircraft passes their respective 3-9 lines.  That meant no diving or climbing or early turns, you both stayed at excatly the same alt until you passed each other.

But then again I'm an old fossil.

I remember those were the rules in the very first AH ladder.

The last few years the dive at icon range seems to be the norm.

As others have stated, it boils down to the agreement of the two participants.


shamus

[Bucky73]

Wow nice films....I've NEVER DA'd anyone that said you HAVE to meet at X-alt. We always agree on a ceiling (as shane said).

That HO film was lame as hell and from what I could tell with the spit v spit film-it was all over but the cryin' for bodhi.

I'm no expert bodhi was at no time in an offensive role in that fight.
(don't give me that not merging at x-alt crap either)

[2bighorn]

Originally posted by Toad
I don't think anyone can find a set of hard and fast rules for dueling.

That's not quite correct. For all practical purposes, if no other agreements are made before fight, guys fly by dueling ladder rules. Pretty much every stick not new to dueling knows them.

It's pretty simple:
You agree to the plane, ord, fuel loads and altitude.
Exceeding chosen altitude is not allowed before merge.
Diving to merge is OK once in icon range.
Merge is "cold"; no shooting before planes pass each other's 3-9 line
After merge anything goes.

[ROC]

While actively working on the prospect of a formal CM Supported Ladder, I am tempted to reconsider after reading this thread lol

The main thrust of my concern is the Rules Beforehand.  Regardless of what usually happens, should have happened, wished had happened and wanted to happen, there was an established setting that seems to have been set.

If those rules weren't supported, it shouldn't have been agreed to, and the duel should not have progressed.  If rules are laid out, in specific language, then it needs to be just that way.  No assumptions, no debate after the fact.

If the CM Team does, in fact, establish a ladder, I can assure you that "If" the Rules stated 15K level Merge and you were Over or Under 15k at the time of the merge, you'd be disqualified, plain and simple.  If the language is Expanded to include stuff like "15K Merge, with the freedom to move horizontally or vertically upon icon range" then you have an agreed upon modification to the original rule.  

The bottom line is, no matter what anyone says or thinks happened, clearly assumptions were made and most of the arguments against Bodhi are subjectively based on what "usually" occurs in a Duel.

The rules of a dual are so lose and informal that you guys can argue for the next 2 weeks and your never going to prove a thing while speculating.  Agree and stick to the rules that are presented, simple.  Accept a duel with loose ends and assumptions and you are just begging for distractions like this.

Reading thoughts and assumptions by some good sticks that would probably be likely candidates to enter a ladder, I can only guess at the 47 pages of legally drafted rules that are going to have to be triple signed and notarized before spawning to the runway.  Proof, right here, that any win or loss will be challenged and reduced to a text brawl makes considering a new event rather insane.

[Sketch]

Originally posted by SkyRock
oh, forgot:o  bucky73
and Slash27
and NKL5
and Parin
and MtnMan
and Gooss
and vanscrew
and Betty
and Schatzi
and Ka1e
and aka
and GRIM
and geesh!  WHo in the hell haven't I dueled, the list would be easier to make of those I haven't dueled!



Mark

<-- never have gone to the DA with ya....

[ink]

ya skyrock  im the hurri guy lol

although i have tried to expand my fighter range

i have been flying the

190 a8
190 d

109 g14
109 g6?
109 k
p38
p40
temp {dont like}
typh  {dont like}
ki61


i dont generally fly{but have} the


spits
n1k
la's