Gun crazy Swiss

[Angus]

Lazs, as usual, you're wrong.
"angus... you are the one not seeing the plate for the porridge... what gun laws reduced a homicide rate anywhere in the world... does it really matter what weapon was used in a homicide. If england had 100 murders a year before the draconian ban of firearms and half of em were by firearms.... if they then banned firearms and had 100 murders a year of which only one or two was with a firearm.... how is that better for the people murdered?"
Okay, this year, we haven't had a homicide. how's that?
We haven't had any guncrime so far this year, how's that?
The Brits have 1/4 of your homicides, how's that?
How about looking into the percentage of the people not killed at all??????
(BTW look in the Brit thread if you want to make claims that they're not good enough of a melting pot to cause trouble)

So, build yer gun, nobody can stop that, but up here we can stop you from getting a .45 in a momentary flick

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by Angus

Okay, this year, we haven't had a homicide. how's that?
We haven't had any guncrime so far this year, how's that?
The Brits have 1/4 of your homicides, how's that?

My God Angus you live in Iceland. The world will eventualy catch up to you in time. It`s slowly happening almost everywhere. When the time comes, you or no amount of freedom taking, silly ***, ulterior motive laws will or can stop the guns from coming.
The only  things gun control laws do is take personal freedom  from the population, put the general population at the mercy of those wishing to do harm and make the puppets easily to handle.

[john9001]

there are no criminals in iceland, because there is nothing worth stealing there.

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by john9001
there are no criminals in iceland, because there is nothing worth stealing there.

I want to go get me some Polar bear meat before global warming gets em.
Come on boys...grab them Colts and let`s ride.
Whiskey for my men and beer for my hosses.

[moot]

Angus, supposing you had a valid point about guns being such a bane on Americans, you would still have to refute the 2nd amendment, and the imbalance its absence would cause in the constitution.
Can you do that?  In respect with the Founders' perspective and intentions? If you can't, then what does arguing it anyway as you have accomplish?  I'm not raggin, it's an honest question.

What are you proposing should be done?

[Angus]

Originally posted by Jackal1
I want to go get me some Polar bear meat before global warming gets em.
Come on boys...grab them Colts and let`s ride.
Whiskey for my men and beer for my hosses.

Jackal, I think you're ok, so please don't show off the empty brain cells.

Iceland= no polar bears any more. Actually because now the driftice doesn't get here any more.
We however have hunting rifles, (including me) and horses.
Hence, for this:
"The world will eventualy catch up to you in time. It`s slowly happening almost everywhere. When the time comes, you or no amount of freedom taking, silly ***, ulterior motive laws will or can stop the guns from coming."
We already have guns. Just not any silly clot, and no handguns. As for the "unstoppable thing to come" it is as you are preaching both doomsday and surrender at the same time. "IT HAPPENED TO US; IT WILL HAPPEN TO YOU", What? Oh everything flooding with guns. Well, excuse me, we are not shooting each other, and I rather hope we won't be in the near future.
As for just "us" here, I was rather keen on the European community, Britain in particular as a comparison. So:
"The Brits have 1/4 of your homicides, how's that?"
Hows that?

And John:
"there are no criminals in iceland, because there is nothing worth stealing there."
Yeah. Look at the world stats, including economy,  then read about the private-jets owning elite group  located here, and some of the richer persons in the world. Small and well-off states have lots to loot, just high security and little escape
(No money in Monaco or Luxemburg either I guess, and no loot in the Vatican )

And finally the answer for Lazs:
"angus... you are the one not seeing the plate for the porridge... what gun laws reduced a homicide rate anywhere in the world"

Answer being several if not most Western countries of old, apart from the USA. Many of those who have almost a complete recipe for a high killing rate (multi national, unemployment, multy religion, multi culture, economical differences etc).


And Moot:
"What are you proposing should be done?"

In the USA? No answer there. All overarmed anyway.
In Europe? Keep the pressure up, and don't listen to these silly Yanks that tell you that trying to keep guns out of any John's hands is both pointless and futile.

[Charon]

Charon, when you pull the nose a tad further away from the porridge, you might actually see the plate.

You only provide gross statistics that lack analysis. You seem to think every country in the world is virtually identical in culture, economic disparity, urbanization patterns, etc. In fact, you at one point claimed Iceland was the model of a diverse population when in fact it is 94 percent homogeneous. I really don't think I'm the one failing to look beyond my personal horizon on this issue.  

Streetgangs are everywhere, problem is that yours are and have always been (notably in the famous time of the Chicago typewriter ) much better armed. Getting a gun in the USA is no problem at all for any idiot.

No, as the study points out the rise of American style street gangs is a new development in Europe -- not so in the US. The pattern is largely linked to the multi-ethnic US urban population and has been in place, more or less, back to the  1800s. This has been a very American, and largely unique phenomenon in a world that otherwise has had a lot more pogroms than melting pots. These criminal communities are quite different from casual "gangs of toughs" looking to knock a few heads after a football match or the casual individual robbery criminal. The study goes into quite a bit of history where gangs are concerned both in the US and Europe.

"The Brits have 1/4 of your homicides, how's that?"

And they always have, pretty much, even when firearm ownership was as wide open in the UK as in the US.

By the late 19th century, England had gun laws that were far more liberal than are found anywhere in the United States today, yet almost no gun crime, and little violent crime of other sorts. (An 1870 act, which was seldom enforced, required the payment of a small tax for the privilege of carrying, not simply owning, a gun.)

How do you explain that when firearm laws were equally lax, England still had less violence and fewer firearm homicides?

As for the "unstoppable thing to come" it is as you are preaching both doomsday and surrender at the same time. "IT HAPPENED TO US; IT WILL HAPPEN TO YOU", What? Oh everything flooding with guns. Well, excuse me, we are not shooting each other, and I rather hope we won't be in the near future.

It may never happen in Iceland, for a variety of reasons. But it is clearly happening in the UK and seems to be building in other parts of Europe.  See my earlier quotes and links. Firearms are a tool, the factors that lead to their use by criminals are socio-economic in nature. A lot of the traditional inner city conditions that have lead to a higher rate of violence in US urban communities are clearly and readily developing throughout Europe. In some cases that manifests itself in something like the Tube bombing. In other cases, less ideological and more financial, it manifests itself in violent black market (drugs, for example) business operations where violence simply goes with the trade.

You see guns as the problem with US crime. I see things like this...

The Education Week report shows Detroit's public high schools will graduate only 25 percent of their students. Cleveland, Ohio, and Baltimore, Maryland, will graduate less than 35 percent; Dallas, Texas, New York and Los Angeles, California, about 45 percent. In fact, 10 of our nation's biggest cities will graduate fewer than half their students. This is nothing less than a national crisis.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/06/19/Dobbs.June20/index.html

Charon

[Wolf14]

man my head hurts. Be nice if the darwinism effect happens more often.

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by Angus
We already have guns. Just not any silly clot, and no handguns.  

........and no freedom of choice to do so if you so wish. That`s the point.

 

As for the "unstoppable thing to come" it is as you are preaching both doomsday and surrender at the same time. "IT HAPPENED TO US; IT WILL HAPPEN TO YOU", What? Oh everything flooding with guns. Well, excuse me, we are not shooting each other, and I rather hope we won't be in the near future.

I`m not exactly sure how you reason things. I don`t believe in a totalitarian government in any shape or form. We have the freedom of choice at the moment. We are trying to keep it and personal freedom in general.
When you come up with silly ***, ulterior motive laws such as handgun bans, you have instantly created a potential for another illegal market. Take it to the extremes and you have the potential of turning law abiding citizens into law breakers according to the books. When government oversteps it`s bounds with the very people it is supposed to represent..you have big trouble right here in River City.

"The Brits have 1/4 of your homicides, how's that?"

The way of the world is catching up slowly. Overall pulse rate and lifestyle have a big input also. When you try to compare apples to oranges you have taken yourself out of the ball game.


Granted , it is safe to say that Iceland will not have a big push for the illegal sales from around the globe anyways soon. Nor will it have the big push for anything from around the globe. It is one of those places most don`t even consider.
The point is if you are such a peacefull, fun loving, touchy feely people in general..why are you denied the possession of handguns? Would owning a handgun turn you into something you are not. Buy a Colt and you would say
" Hey ..let`s go cap someone"?
What`s your government`s fear of you having the right to own a handgun?

[lazs2]

angus..  I see you are unwilling to answer the simple question... what country passed a gun law that made it's people safer and less likely to be murdered or become a victim of serious crime..

What country and what law?

lazs

[Angus]

Uhm.
Iceland, and the gunlaw?
(when you are cruising at almost 0% you cannot do better.)

[Angus]

Charon. A short one here:
" When you try to compare apples to oranges you have taken yourself out of the ball game."

So it's more compareable to use Detroit vs. Iceland rather than some zone of the USA?
Or a row of blocks in Manchester?

UK vs USA not comparible?

Getting away from comparison (since as far as I understand from you nothing in the world can be compared with the USA), you still deal with the question whether more firearms in circulation in i.e. European countries would increase serious crime. When some characters on this board start booing at the Euros for trying to hold the arms at bay, I still belive that is based on ignorance, - the effort is good and working. So it raises my temper a bit, - sorry. (BTW your inputs IMHO are well speculated)

And Jacka1:
"........and no freedom of choice to do so if you so wish. That`s the point."
Can't have a handgrenade or an assault rifles either. Oh, the Humanity ....

[McFarland]

I can get hand grenades if I wanted them, doesn't mean I would use them as something other than big fireworks. - Me

Guns are not the problem, it's not using them correctly. Guns have several purposes:
1. Self Defence (someone comes at me, I will shoot him)
2. Aquiring Food (I will hunt for my food)
3. Defence of Your Nation (I will shoot terrorists, it will protect many more lives)
4. Sport Shooting (just a way to get better)

Gun control doesn't work, because it only harms the honest man. If a criminal wants a gun, he will get it illegally or make one, anybody can do it. (I know how to make the gun, the powder, and the bullet from common household and warehouse parts). If a man doesn't have a gun, he can't defend against one who does very well. I personally wish the American West would return, as back then people who did wrong were punished, not sent to a cell with free satellite TV and free food. That is why we have so much crime, because criminals ain't punished. They know they probably will spend a few years in jail, and get out on parole.

[Charon]

So it's more compareable to use Detroit vs. Iceland rather than some zone of the USA?
Or a row of blocks in Manchester?

The part that you seem to be utterly unable to understand is that the "row of blocks in Manchester" is directly comprable to exactly where the same issues exist in the US. Detroit is a disaster and an extreme example to be sure, but even there not EVERY street is a warzone by any means. If your view on the US is based off of popular TV shows then the confusion is understandable. They tend to portray a reality that doesn't exist, by and large, from a shows like CSI Miami to Friends, for that matter.

Outside of these "rows of blocks" there is no fiream problem to speak of in the US. Most Americans will go through life, and by most, actually, the vast majority, without ever encountering a firearm in a hostile situation. Period. Chicago doesn't have a firearm crime problem, areas like the specific neighborhood of Englewood, in Chicago, have a crime problem. Nothing more than a directly comprable "row of blocks" to the Manchester "row of blocks." That is reality.

Even in those bad "rows of blocks" you are far more at risk from a receptionist having too many jello shots behind the wheel of her car than you are from firearms -- UNLESS YOU ARE A GANGBANGER OR WANNA BE. The blood simply does not flow in the streets. Even the accidental "crossfire" shootings are not all that common.

The US currently has more dangerous "rows of blocks" because, as noted in that study you fail to read, the social dynamics have been quite different for many years. Our streetgang issue has been somewhat unique (at least among 1st world nations). That is changing. The UK and other parts of Europe will start to have more of those "rows of blocks." This is not MY opinion, but that of law enforcement and researchers in Europe itself. You can  still debate the issue of firearm laws, but the SOURCE of rising crime in Europe is pretty clear. You are arguing with them, not me.

UK vs USA not comparible?

You still failed to answer how when the firearm laws in the US and UK were virtually identical the US still had a higher incidence of homicide, including firearm homicide. You have failed to show how the gross differences in demographics, population densities and urbanization patterns between the two countries is somehow unimportant with only firearm availability being a useful point of reference. Again, not My speculation but that of researchers who analyze crime. If you can't address these significant and well documented differences as part of your argument, then you're just being stubborn with a largely emotional argument and it's not worth the time to continue the debate. You offer nothing but speculation based on several gross statistics with no analysis for any socitial difference that may occur between the two countries.

Charon

[Angus]

Charon, you were comparing the UK of old to the UK of today. After all, the Brithish were very British and are still ..British.

What I feel that you and some others are failing to see is that the USA cuts out from other western nations in the statistics of serious crime and guncrime, while being better armed.

There are IMHO maybe these possible answers for "why"

1. Cultural difference.
2. Economical difference
3. Homogenetic difference
4. Religional difference
5. Situational difference
6. Legal environment
6b. Accessability to leathal weapons.

As for the reality, I have no doubt that most of the US is a very nice place to live and peacefully and unfearfully so. However, the stats are now so nice.
I have never been in the USA. But a lot around in Europe, as well as many of my friends either resided in the USA or are/were from there. And I watch very little TV by the way.

Will be back later....got to get the multi-national melting-pot of a household under control.