For all you voters...

[Viking]

Now, I'm gone for real.

See you guys on Sunday.

[Angus]

Bon Voyage, and good fishing.
Will drop a tad into the warplanes of the Luftwaffe.
However, best source I found on the Mossie so far is not google, but Karnak.
(no joke)

[Karnak]

Not a modified Mossie, all Series II Mossie VIs acording the Kev, and Series II was the vast majority of the 2700+ built.  The modified ones had the flame dampers added.

Also we have to look at the intended use and the altitude bands.  The Mosquito VI hits 390ish at 13,000ft or so.  The Me410 hits 385 at what? 22,000ft or so?  At 13,000ft it is probably more in the 365mph range.  At sea level where the Mosquito VI is doing 350mph, faster than the Bf109s and Fw190s in 1943, the Me410 is doing about 330mph.

[PanzerIV]

I dont know much about the A26 but it must have been extremely superb at its job as it was in service during Vietnam!

[B3YT]

i'd like to point out that the " had no impact on the war" mossie  HAD a massive effect on the war in the atlantic and europe.

It was used to kill ships in the north sea and norways fjords. This crippled the German navies supplies to the atlantic.

The "hit and run " raids on mainland europe ment that construction was disrupted by the attacks on freight yards and main junctions of railways. Most of these were hit by Mossie squadrons before the 8th army moved in.

RAF bomber command relied on the mossie to mark out targets for the night bombers that would disrupt germany from workig at night.

oh and of cause those all important inteligance photos over germany/ yugoslavia/ italy/ france were taken by.....................MOSSIE S.

But as you say viking the mossie was of NO IMPORTANCE what so ever when compared to the MIGHTY 410 THAT WON THE WAR FOR.........oh wait.....damn

[B3YT]

"don't see the Mossie having a big role in the war at all. And compared to the Zerstörers (110/210/410) in total the Mossie played a minor role. The 410 was a far more important aircraft to the Germans in 1943-44 than the Mossie was to the allies"

bollocks!!:furious

[Viking]

Originally posted by Angus
However, best source I found on the Mossie so far is not google, but Karnak.
(no joke)

That may very well be true, but I have repeatedly asked him to name the armed Mossie versions that were faster than the Me 410 in 1943 and he refuses to answer. Nor does he offer up any names of Mosquito FB.VI aces. He refuses to answer because he now knows that he was wrong, but he’s not man enough to admit it.

---

Karnak, it seems your argument is fundamentally flawed. According to these flight tests (available in PDF format on http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org)  the Mosquito FB.VI at +18 lbs boost was 5 mph faster without the drop tanks than with drop tanks fitted. And the best test done on the FB.IV with multi-stub ejector exhausts show a top speed of 384 mph at rated altitude with drop tanks. Without drop tanks the speed would then be 389 mph … or ONE mph faster than the Me 410 at 388 mph (the Me 210 had a top speed of 385 mph). How’s that for “middling to poor performance”, you hypocrite.

I’ve converted the two PDF’s in question into jpg’s for the reader’s convenience:

Originally posted by Karnak
Also we have to look at the intended use and the altitude bands.  The Mosquito VI hits 390ish at 13,000ft or so.  The Me410 hits 385 at what? 22,000ft or so?  At 13,000ft it is probably more in the 365mph range.  At sea level where the Mosquito VI is doing 350mph, faster than the Bf109s and Fw190s in 1943, the Me410 is doing about 330mph.

That argument works both ways; The Me 410 is faster at 22,000-ish than the Mossie, and thus have the advantage of both altitude and speed. The Me 410’s engines were optimized for medium altitude, and in that altitude band I bet the Me 410 is faster than all Mosquitoes seeing how none of them seem to have engines optimized for around 20,000 like the Germans. The high-alt Mossies would be below rated altitude and the low-alt Mossies would be above rated altitude.


In any case, my original argument stands: The Me 410 is faster than the Mosquito (the one we have in AH). You may argue and slither like a Sidewinder snake all you want … it won’t change this basic truth.

[Karnak]

I never rufsed to answer.  I simply don't have time to dig through my books.

Also note that you didn't challenge me to name Mossie IVI aces, you simply expressed doubt that there were any and I made the counter statement that there were.

As to performance graphs, there are no performance graphs in existance of a a Mosquito Mk VI Series II without flame dampers that performs at normal levels.  The one the RAE tested is acknowleged by them to be far below normal performance for the type and even after maitainance work by De Haviland on that example and retesting it is commented to still be below normal performance for the type.  Personally my guess is that the RAE asked for an active squadron for one to test and the squadron gaven them the lemon to get rid of it.

What I do have are the comments, some made directly to be by Mossie pilots, about the speeds it would do.  Per De Haviland's note about some airspeed indicators reading about 20mph to high I have discounted all of the 370mph on the deck claims I have heard and added them to the bulk of the claims which are about 350mph on the deck.


As to the aces, I don't have my books here.  But look at the default skin of the Mossie in Aces High.  It is a 418 Squadron Mossie with, as I recall, 18 kills marked on it.  I have here a photo ofanother 418 Squadron Mossie VI with its pilot and navigator, S/L Russ Bannock and F/O Bobbie Bruce, the Mosquito "Hairless Joe" has 16 kill markers on it.

If you think that only 418 Squadron had Mossie VI aces, well, I don't know what to say.

[Karnak]

Here is 418's final tally with the "useless" Mosquito:

http://www.418squadron.ca/

The final tally of the wartime 418 looks something like this: in 37 months from their formation to the last of the war, the unit flew 3,492 sorties, for a total of 11,248 hours airborne. They destroyed 178 enemy aircraft, 105 of them in the air and 73 on the ground, damaged another 103, and scored 9 'probable' kills. All of their airborne victories were achieved without the aid of Airborne Interception radar, relying on visual contact alone. 83 V1 rockets fell to 418's Mosquitos, saving many lives.

Roughly 200 motor vehicles were destroyed completely by the unit, and almost twice that number were damaged. 16 locomotives were destroyed, 23 probably destroyed, and 36 damaged. 52 railway freight cars were destroyed, seriously damaged or derailed, and three barges and trawlers were sunk. Another 20 barges and trawlers were significantly damaged. One bridge was destroyed, ten factories were damaged, and there is no telling how many searchlights, gun emplacements, railway facilities, and other various targets suffered damage from the night intruders.

Yup, no effect on the war at all.

I find it funny that you think the British were so enthusistic about an aircraft that was useless and had no effect on the war that they built 7,700 of them and always ordered more than production could meet.  That the Americans wanted badly as well to replace their F-5 (P-38) recon aircraft with F-8 recon aircraft (Mosquitoes) but couldn't  get enough of them.  That Curtis seriously considered licensing the design and building it in the US, an almost unheard of thing.

[Viking]

Originally posted by Karnak
I never rufsed to answer.  I simply don't have time to dig through my books.

I thought you were supposed to some kind of authority on the Mossie. It is funny that you decline to comment on which Mossies were faster than the Me 410 because you don’t have time to research it … but you are adamant that the Me 410 had “middling to poor performance” based on even less research. Can you say “bias”?

Originally posted by Karnak
Also note that you didn't challenge me to name Mossie IVI aces…

I most certainly did … multiple times:

Originally posted by Viking
Then why don’t you mention a couple of them.

Originally posted by Viking
Instead of insulting my intelligence with your pathetic evading why don’t you just give me a few names of Mossie FB.VI aces?

Originally posted by Viking
I still see no Mossie FB.VI aces.

Originally posted by Viking
Where are the FB.VI aces? I couldn't find any.

Attention span problem or reading comprehension?

Originally posted by Karnak
As to performance graphs, there are no performance graphs in existance of a a Mosquito Mk VI Series II without flame dampers that performs at normal levels.  The one the RAE tested is acknowleged by them to be far below normal performance for the type and even after maitainance work by De Haviland on that example and retesting it is commented to still be below normal performance for the type.  

And you base this conjecture on what? Can you document that the RAE “acknowledges” that the test aircraft underperformed? And how would they even KNOW that if they didn’t test another Mosquito? I call BS.

Originally posted by Karnak
What I do have are the comments, some made directly to be by Mossie pilots, about the speeds it would do.  Per De Haviland's note about some airspeed indicators reading about 20mph to high I have discounted all of the 370mph on the deck claims I have heard and added them to the bulk of the claims which are about 350mph on the deck.

Yes and some 262 pilots claim they broke the sound barrier. Hell, IIRC even a P-47 pilot claimed he broke the sound barrier in a dive. HiTech is not going to model the FM after pilot anecdotes on speed, they are about as reliable as fishing stories.

Originally posted by Karnak
As to the aces, I don't have my books here.  But look at the default skin of the Mossie in Aces High.  It is a 418 Squadron Mossie with, as I recall, 18 kills marked on it.  I have here a photo ofanother 418 Squadron Mossie VI with its pilot and navigator, S/L Russ Bannock and F/O Bobbie Bruce, the Mosquito "Hairless Joe" has 16 kill markers on it.

If you think that only 418 Squadron had Mossie VI aces, well, I don't know what to say.

Russ Bannock shot down 19 V-1’s and 11 German night-fighters. 418sq was a night-intruder squadron that lurked near German airfields and vulched the German night fighters on take-off and landing. I have already acknowledged that there were Mossie night-fighter aces, and now you have found a night-fighter squadron that actually used FB.VI’s in an unconventional way. However they are hardly representative of the FB.VI usage are they? Don’t think so. They could have done the same job with Bostons … and they DID! From 1941 to 1943 they flew Bostons at night and attacked German airfields.  Any daytime aces you’d care to mention?

Originally posted by Karnak
Here is 418's final tally with the "useless" Mosquito:

So during THREE YEARS of wartime operation the squadron managed to shoot down 103 aircraft. Not impressive, especially if that number includes the 83 V-1’s (the British did count them as victories for some reason). The FOUR top Zerstörer aces have more kills than the entire 418sq. Both the first and second leading German night-fighter aces have higher personal scores. Hell, Marseilles alone killed more planes in less than a year. Even the best British ace Joseph Berry alone shot down more than half of that entire squadron’s tally.

Not impressed.

Originally posted by Karnak
Yup, no effect on the war at all.

Yeah, certainly none that I can see. They were harassers, nuisance raiders.

Originally posted by Karnak
I find it funny that you think the British were so enthusistic about an aircraft that was useless and had no effect on the war that they built 7,700 of them and always ordered more than production could meet.  That the Americans wanted badly as well to replace their F-5 (P-38) recon aircraft with F-8 recon aircraft (Mosquitoes) but couldn't  get enough of them.  That Curtis seriously considered licensing the design and building it in the US, an almost unheard of thing.

 “Wanted badly”, “seriously considered”, woulda coulda shoulda. 6710 Mossies were built during the war. That only equals the production of Bf 110’s and less than the total of Zerstörers produced.

The Mossie was a great plane and all, but not as great as you’d like to think.

[Karnak]

75% of 418 Squadron's kills were during the daylight.  If you think their record is "nothing" then you have a massively distorted view of a single squadron's contributions to the war effort on any side.

I am done with you and welcome to being the first person on my ignore list.

You know nothing and you don't try to learn anything.

You call BS?  

It is stated upfront in the test documents.

You don't even read my posts, but scan them and then post nonsense about Me262 claims to counter the 370mph claim which I already said I discounted.

Goodbye.

[Viking]

OMG LOL!

If you can't beat the arguments, ignore them. Thanks for playing Karnak, but you were a hopeless adversary from your first misguided post.





... and don't even pretend you're not reading this

[Viking]

Btw. Angus, I just bought this book:





It was published in April and is supposed to be the ultimate resource on the Me 210/410 weapon systems and many variations. I'm all giddy just thinking about it!

[B3YT]

Vikin. you do realise that the mossie was used for 15 years after WWII in the fleet air arm as a maratime patrol aircraft?

Mossie was well named . How do you tie up thousands of troops , wear down quadrons , anoy the command of a country? Bomb and attack them with little planes that you can bearly catch. yes thats right be a nuisance.

to be honest

[Viking]

Originally posted by B3YT
Vikin. you do realise that the mossie was used for 15 years after WWII in the fleet air arm as a maratime patrol aircraft?

Yes, it was a truly excellent aircraft.

Originally posted by B3YT
Mossie was well named . How do you tie up thousands of troops , wear down quadrons , anoy the command of a country? Bomb and attack them with little planes that you can bearly catch. yes thats right be a nuisance.

to be honest

Yup. Nuisance raider, the Me 410 served the same purpose during the "Baby Blitz". Annoying as they were they hardly changed the outcome of the war.