A pilots' analysis of dog fighting an F-22

[Ripsnort]

Originally posted by wooley
Isn't it sad how - in some ways - we seem to be going backwards.

The SR-71 and Concorde were both fantastic technological achievements, but where are the follow ups?

Maybe the US military has something we don't know about, but I'm pretty sure neither Airbus or Boeing have a new supersonic passenger transport up their sleeves.

Don't forget the XB-70!

In the next 20 years, be prepared to be amazed.

Meanwhile,
Speed = Fuel.
Until engine technology catches up (fuel efficiency at high speed and quiet engines at low speed) we'll remain under the speed of sound.

[Grayeagle]

I recall a little party over Bakaa Valley (sp?) awhile ago.

Mig's were gonna 'get some' ..the F-15's first fight, flown by Israel.

I often wonder just how many Aces were made that day.

Everyone knew the F-15 was a good airplane,
.. well ..
...except the Mig Pilots.

They learned the hard way that it wasn't just 'western propaganda.'

-shrug-

If it ever comes down to it .. I have no doubt the Raptor will teach the same lessons.

-GE ( I cannot imagine what it's like to see all your planes takeoff ...and few if any return)

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Grayeagle
I recall a little party over Bakaa Valley (sp?) awhile ago.

Mig's were gonna 'get some' ..the F-15's first fight, flown by Israel.

I often wonder just how many Aces were made that day.

Everyone knew the F-15 was a good airplane,
.. well ..
...except the Mig Pilots.

They learned the hard way that it wasn't just 'western propaganda.'

-shrug-

If it ever comes down to it .. I have no doubt the Raptor will teach the same lessons.

-GE ( I cannot imagine what it's like to see all your planes takeoff ...and few if any return)

Funny, but here we have heard absolutely different stories from Syria 1982. F-15 got severe problems facing MiG-23ML, not even the latest model, MLD.

IIRC this fights are in some modern tactics textbooks. Red side used old MiG-21s and 23s in an ambush, in worst conditions trading 1-2 balalaikas for 1-2 F-15s.

I find it amazing how blue side sometimes denies obvious facts, failing to admit losses.

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by Boroda


I find it amazing how blue side sometimes denies obvious facts, failing to admit losses.

I find it amazing how the former-red side sometimes denies obvioius facts, failing to admit their best aircraft were easily defeated.


I wonder how much business MiG lost after that episode against the Syrians and how many inquiries McDonnell Douglas got asking for how much an F-15 is.


ack-ack

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Ack-Ack
I find it amazing how the former-red side sometimes denies obvioius facts, failing to admit their best aircraft were easily defeated.

On July 6-12 1982 Syrian pilots shot down at least 5 F-15s and 6 F-16s, totally 42 Israely planes. They lost 10 23s of two modifications, but it's hard to compete when opposite side has all possible support including AWACS. Total score was 42:54. And we don't count planes shot down by Syrian SAMs, there were at least one SAM brigade and several regiments there, manned by Soviet crews.

About denying obvious: you still deny that there were two American planes shot down over Syrt gulf in 1986. LOL "it never happened".

Correction: Syrians had MiG-23MF and 23MS frontline fighters, hardly the best aircraft at that time, plus good old 21s and some other discontinued types.

[Nilsen]

Originally posted by GFShill
Stealth and BVR don't mean a thing if the Secretary says you have to have absolute visual verification that its an enemy aircraft before shooting.  See the history of air combat in Vietnam.

Yup. I bet the majority of air to air combat in the future will not be BVR. The pilots need to ID the aircraft before shooting at them, or showing them out of the area. Does that mean that stealth is useless? No ofcourse not, but if i managed an airforce with a sensible budget i would not focus on stealth.

[Furball]

Originally posted by Boroda
On July 6-12 1982 Syrian pilots shot down at least 5 F-15s and 6 F-16s, totally 42 Israely planes. They lost 10 23s of two modifications, but it's hard to compete when opposite side has all possible support including AWACS. Total score was 42:54. And we don't count planes shot down by Syrian SAMs, there were at least one SAM brigade and several regiments there, manned by Soviet crews.

About denying obvious: you still deny that there were two American planes shot down over Syrt gulf in 1986. LOL "it never happened".

Correction: Syrians had MiG-23MF and 23MS frontline fighters, hardly the best aircraft at that time, plus good old 21s and some other discontinued types.

Comrade, you got your numbers wrong, it was 500 F-15's and 600 F-16's, and they were using superior russian technology AN-2's!

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Furball
Comrade, you got your numbers wrong, it was 500 F-15's and 600 F-16's, and they were using superior russian technology AN-2's!

Eh, British humor?...

A brief description of MiG-23 combat encounters in Middle East: http://airwar.ru/history/locwar/bv/mig23/mig23.html - just in case you can read Russian.

There is usually more then one source of information on every conflict.

An interesting article, I didn't know that Soviet S-200 brigade in Syria managed to shoot down an American Hawkeye in 1983...

[Furball]

Originally posted by Boroda
A brief description of MiG-23 combat encounters in Middle East: http://airwar.ru/history/locwar/bv/mig23/mig23.html - just in case you can read Russian.

I can barely read English, let alone Russian

[WMLute]

Originally posted by Boroda
On July 6-12 1982 Syrian pilots shot down at least 5 F-15s and 6 F-16s, totally 42 Israely planes. They lost 10 23s of two modifications, but it's hard to compete when opposite side has all possible support including AWACS. Total score was 42:54. And we don't count planes shot down by Syrian SAMs, there were at least one SAM brigade and several regiments there, manned by Soviet crews.

About denying obvious: you still deny that there were two American planes shot down over Syrt gulf in 1986. LOL "it never happened".

Correction: Syrians had MiG-23MF and 23MS frontline fighters, hardly the best aircraft at that time, plus good old 21s and some other discontinued types.

The Israeli airforce did not suffer a single loss and downed 85 Syrian aircraft.

Let me repeat this because you tend to be a bit slow on the uptake.

The Israeli airforce did not suffer a single loss and downed 85 Syrian aircraft.



RAND Report on Mosco's sessons from the 1982 Lebanon Air War

This Report reviews Soviet impressions of Israeli air operations during the 1982 Lebanon war. It evaluates a 1983 article published in the Soviet Air Force monthly (whose audience includes Soviet aircrews) that assesses the implications of the Israeli-Syrian air battles. For Western audiences, the article provides insights into how the soviets have interpreted the Beka'a Valley experience. It appears that the Soviets have either deliberately misrepresented Israel's air combat results to their own pilots or else failed to comprehend the tactical lessons suggested by Israel combat performance.

1982: Operation Peace for the Galilee.

Google it.

Find me ANYTHING that show's that the Syrians shot down a single Israeli fighter.

I find it harder and harder to believe you live in the same world as the rest of us.

[Nilsen]

You cant really blame the communist leadership for misleading its population. If they had told the truth all the time their deck of cards would have collapsed way before it did. What is really scary is that so many russians still belive what they were fed was the truth.

Im not saying that there was not ALOT of false and misleading propaganda in the west and israel too, but the truth is abit harder to hide when you have a population that are in a postition to ask questions about what is going on in the world.

In the case of the syria/israel conflict it is not _impossible_ to imagine that for propaganda purposes losses could be replaced "under the table" to make Israel look stronger than it was. Im not claiming this to be the case, but it could make sense for such a small nation to do so given its sorrounding neighbours. Im quite sure that if such a scenario was a reality the west would have been more than happy to replace the losses in equipment to maintain an illusion of technical superiority. Israel would also be a very good place for arms suppliers to test our stuff vs their stuff.

[Elfie]

In the case of the syria/israel conflict it is not _impossible_ to imagine that for propaganda purposes losses could be replaced "under the table" to make Israel look stronger than it was. Im not claiming this to be the case, but it could make sense for such a small nation to do so given its sorrounding neighbours. Im quite sure that if such a scenario was a reality the west would have been more than happy to replace the losses in equipment to maintain an illusion of technical superiority. Israel would also be a very good place for arms suppliers to test our stuff vs their stuff

I understand what you are saying and I agree that it is possible for something like this to happen. I don't think that in this case it did happen though.

When you consider the level of training the IAF gets, (they are regarded as one of the best, if not the best Air Force in the world), and the level of training of their Arab neighbors, the outcome of the air battle over the Bekaa Valley is much more likely to be as Israel claims.

Here's a pretty good article about Israel's lessons with SAM's and air defenses in general. Note that Israel doesn't hide losses from the War of Attrition and the Yom Kippur War. Nor do they deny that an F-4 Phantom was shot down by a SAM over the Bekaa Valley.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-14826.html

[Nilsen]

Indeed.. the pilots in the IAF are probably the best pilots in the world, and their tactics were brilliant. Im just saying that it would be possible, and that the old commies are not the only ones that used false propaganda

[Elfie]

Originally posted by Nilsen
Indeed.. the pilots in the IAF are probably the best pilots in the world, and their tactics were brilliant. Im just saying that it would be possible, and that the old commies are not the only ones that used false propaganda

I'm not disagreeing with this.

Did you get to read that article I linked? I found it very interesting.

*edit* The link and last paragraph were actually for *someone* else. Still a good read though.

[Angus]

Hehe, this might catch fire, but the fact remains that wherever the USSR hardware on wings met western hardware on wings, the USSR hardware was the underdog, - statistically. I am talking of any significant conflicts, like Finland vs USSR, LW vs USSR, Korea, Nam, Syria. All I left is smaller stuff.
Now, lot of it was tactics, I know. Especially WW2 and Korea, where you basically had very well matched aircraft with a difference in performance/maneuverability that would even be with the USSR. But, anyway, I could not resist to bring up the point. USSR aircraft in combat have in most conflicts been shot down in more numbers than any....