Best Prop Plane??????

[SteveBailey]

Originally posted by bozon
No plane fought with full flaps. All turning evaluations in comparative tests were done with no flaps.

I don't want to belittle your tests WW, but people tend to take them as gospel. You tested very specific and extreme ends of the envelope. This is NOT representative of an actual sustained turning fight where you balance radius and rate of turn - not min/max one of them. Simply due to better power loading and wing loading, P51 can SUSTAIN better turn rate. What actually happens is that jug pilots in a knife fight go for "all or nothing" moves using only instantaneous turns, never sustaining them. Going round and round vs. P51D is death - it will either come around behind you, or gain E and drop on your head. The Jug's way to counter it will be switching to a linear fight, not circular.

[Guppy35]

Just out of curiousity, do you believe the same applies to the AH B Pony?

I really enjoy that bird and it seems to turn quite well and hang with the 16s, Kis etc.

I tend to get low and slow in it like I do in the 38G and it flops kinda nice and the flaps do seem to help a lot in the turn fights.

But then again the D Pony always feels "heavier" to me in AH.  I know it was for real as well, but it doesn't seem as agile as the B Pony.

[Angus]

Out of a description from an old P51 pilot, it was 1 notch. Full flaps=pointless.

[SgtPappy]

Originally posted by Karnak
Kinda makes the Spit XIV sound better than it is in AH2 as well, particularly the roll rate comments.

Of course, what those brief comments don't cover is acceleration at different speeds or roll rates at different speeds.


SgtPappy,

The Spitfire Mk XVI is just a Spitfire LF.Mk IX with an American version of the engine, Merlin 266 instead of a Merlin 66 (the Mk XVI in AH even uses Merlin 66 critical alts instead of Merlin 266 critical alts).  The Mk IX in AH is an F.Mk IX with a lower powered, but with higher critical alts, Merlin 61.

Oh I know that. I just find it nothing to look like the Spitfires of old childhood.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by bozon
No plane fought with full flaps. All turning evaluations in comparative tests were done with no flaps.

Some did. It was uncommon, but it happened. Either way, what they did in WWII has no bearing on what we do here.

In the game, we often fight with flaps deployed. That's how it is.

I don't want to belittle your tests WW, but people tend to take them as gospel. You tested very specific and extreme ends of the envelope. This is NOT representative of an actual sustained turning fight where you balance radius and rate of turn - not min/max one of them. Simply due to better power loading and wing loading, P51 can SUSTAIN better turn rate. What actually happens is that jug pilots in a knife fight go for "all or nothing" moves using only instantaneous turns, never sustaining them. Going round and round vs. P51D is death - it will either come around behind you, or gain E and drop on your head. The Jug's way to counter it will be switching to a linear fight, not circular.

When was the last time you flew the P-51s? I don't see evidence that you have with the exception of tour 77 (June 2006), where you landed a four kills in Mustangs. I'm sure you were not fighting 1v1 dogfights.

Thus, I have to say that until you've dueled some top sticks, Jug vs P-51, you really have no idea of how bad or good the P-51s currently are. On the other hand, I have. In the MA, you can run away in the P-51 if you wish. Not so in a duel. At corner speed, the P-51 handles very well. The problem is that duels usually occur at very low altitudes. Eventually, the fight will slow down. When it does, the P-51 cannot out-turn a P-47 flown by a pilot of equal skill.

You will never master a fighter until you can fly it at the edge of its limits, I think everyone will agree with this (those that do not can be written off as dolts). At the low speed limit of its envelope, the P-51 is inferior to almost every mid to late war fighter in the plane set. The drag model update is the cause.

Now for those who don't believe me, I'm in the TA Tuesday thru Thursday evenings. Stop by, grab a P-51 and find out for yourself.

My regards,

Widewing

[SgtPappy]

Not sure if you said it WW, but I remember reading a post that stated the P-51's turn radius is actually under-modeled in-game?

[Karnak]

Originally posted by SgtPappy
Oh I know that. I just find it nothing to look like the Spitfires of old childhood.

Yeah, I prefer the Mk VIII myself.

[SteveBailey]

Originally posted by Widewing
,  At the low speed limit of its envelope, the P-51 is inferior to almost every mid to late war fighter in the plane set. The drag model update is the cause.

Widewing

Thank you!

[evenhaim]

when was the drag model updated (rough date please).

cheers
-freezman

[Lusche]

Originally posted by evenhaim
when was the drag model updated (rough date please).

cheers
-freezman

IIRC, the last major FM update was version 2.07, March 2006.

[Benny Moore]

Originally posted by Karnak
That wouldn't really change the turn radius much.  WWII fighters produced such low thrust that it really didn't help them turn much.

That's very, very wrong.  Try turn fighting at 80% throttle sometimes.  I can strongly feel the difference even between 100% and W.E.P., as can all good pilots.  Also, aside from the turn radius, power really helps the turn rate.

Originally posted by Viking
I call BS.

Well, you're a perverse compulsive liar, so it doesn't matter what you think.  However, everyone else can look on Mike Williams' excellent site for official documents (photocopies) of 70" Hg. MAP cleared for use on the P-38.  There are also documents for similar and higher boosts for other U.S. ships.

[Karnak]

Originally posted by Benny Moore
That's very, very wrong.  Try turn fighting at 80% throttle sometimes.  I can strongly feel the difference even between 100% and W.E.P., as can all good pilots.  Also, aside from the turn radius, power really helps the turn rate.

Incorrect.  Cutting throttle tightens the turn because you are decelerating, not due to a change in thrust.

The difference between MIL and WEP is mostly in keeping the nose higher.  But differences in thrust produced by WWII fighters doesn't tighten or loosen the turn significantly.

[evenhaim]

Originally posted by Lusche
IIRC, the last major FM update was version 2.07, March 2006.

ya i seem to remember that period i had a discussion with a squadie a few months ago about wether we thought the update chipped at the pony but i remember our main issue was 50 cals having more of a drop effect and a slight choke on the manouverability but not something dumbfounding or too major IIRC

[dtango]

The drag FM change that Widewing is referring to occurred at the switch from AH1 to AH2, or the earlier releases of AH2.  That's what you've heard us talk about evenhaim regarding the P-51.

Karnak:  Here is the turn rate equation as a function of L/D, T/W and V.  Both thrust and velocity impact turn rate.



Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

[Widewing]

Originally posted by dtango
The drag FM change that Widewing is referring to occurred at the switch from AH1 to AH2, or the earlier releases of AH2.  That's what you've heard us talk about evenhaim regarding the P-51.

Karnak:  Here is the turn rate equation as a function of L/D, T/W and V.  Both thrust and velocity impact turn rate.



Tango, XO
412th FS Braunco Mustangs

That change didn't completely kill the P-51s, but the drag change that correlated to the introduction of the revised Bf 109s was the coup d' grace. I still have AH1 on my machine, so I'll do some testing and report the comparison.

My regards,

Widewing