Originally posted by Krusty
WW was perhaps exaggerating with his "everything but 190s" comment.
No exaggeration whatsoever.
I don't think even YOU can claim the P47 turns better than the P51.
P-47s out-turn the P-51s. Flaps only gets the P-51 dead sooner.
You've seen the turn radius chart, with full flaps the P51B matches the P38 for turning with flaps, and the 51D is a little behind that.
Any P-38 will out-turn any P-51... And do so easily.
Not to mention all the speed/climb/acceleration data I included (secondary to the turn radius, but still a factor in "suck" or "not suck"...
P-38J/L accelerates and climbs better than the P-51s. P-47s, especially the D-40 are close behind. Close enough that escape by running is not an option unless you have an E advantage to start. The higher you go, the closer the P-47s get to the P-51D in acceleration, and eventually pass it. P-38s just open the gap further as you go up.
Hey I'm not saying it accelerates like a 163, or that it turns like a a6m2. I'm saying you're incorrect to state it's the worst turning plane in all the late ware US planes, and that it accelerates slowly, and etc etc etc.
Krusty, how about flying the P-51 against a P-38L, Co-E and Co-alt starting at 300 mph. If you fight, you will die. Ditto against the Jugs. The RAF considered the Mustang Mk.III the most agile fighter after the Spitfires. In fact, in direct combat comparisons, they considered it a toss up as to which would win.
In AH2, the P-51 is outclassed by the Spitfires( Mk. IX, VIII, XVI and XIV) in every category except max speed.
Acceleration: " The Spitfire has the best acceleration, followed by the Mustang III, Tempest V, Thunderbolt and Meteor III."
Climb: "To a lesser extent the same applies to rate of climb. Almost invariably the aircraft with the best power to weight ratio will have the best rate of climb. Here the Spitfire XIV comes into its own, followed by the Mustang III, the Tempest V and then the Thunderbolt II. This aircraft incidentally, is actually better than the Mustang and Tempest at around 28,000ft."
Turning Circles: "Once again, the Spitfire maintains top place, followed by the Mustang, Meteor, Tempest and Thunderbolt. Too much regard to this order should not be paid, particularly by the individual who will angrily recall the occasion when he out-turned a Meteor when flying his Tempest. This sort of thing is inevitable, but we can only repeat that where the circumstances are common to both aircraft, these positions are not far wrong."
How about the Mustang Mk.III Tactical Trials?
BRIEF TACTICAL COMPARISON WITH SPITFIRE XIV
Maximum Endurance
25. By comparison the Spitfire XIV has no endurance.
Maximum speed
26. There is practically nothing to choose in maximum speed.
Maximum climb
27. The Spitfire XIV is very much better.
Dive
28. As for the Spitfire IX. The Mustang pulls away; but less markedly.
Turning Circle
29. The Spitfire XIV is better.
Rate of Roll
30. Advantage tends to be with the Spitfire XIV.
Conclusion
31. With the exception of endurance, no conclusions should be drawn, as these two aircraft should never be enemies. The choice is a matter of taste. How about comparison to the Bf 109G?
Maximum Speed
45. The Mustang III is faster at all heights. Its best heights, by comparison, are below 16,000ft (30mph faster approx) and above 25,000ft (30mph increasing to 50mph at 30,000ft).
Maximum climb
46. This is rather similar. The Mustang is very slightly better above 25,000ft but worse below 20,000ft.
Zoom Climb
47. Unfortunately the Me. 109G appears to have a very good high-speed climb, making the aircraft very similar in a zoom climb.
Dive
48. On the other hand in defense the Mustang can still increase the range in a prolonged dive.
Turning Circle
49. The Mustang III is greatly superior.
Rate of Roll
50. Not much to choose. In defense (in a tight spot) a rapid change of direction will throw the Me.109G’s sight off. This is because the 109G’s maximum roll is embarrassing (slots keep opening)
Conclusions
51. In attack, the Mustang can always catch the Me.109G, except in any sort of climb (unless there is a high overtaking speed). In defense, a steep turn should be the first maneuver, followed if necessary, by a dive (below 20,000ft). A high-speed climb will unfortunately not increase the range. If above 25,000ft. keep above by climbing or all out level.There's lots of data that supports the P-51s being better than they are in the game.
I'm not some wild fanatical P51 fan, but I've flown it enough and FOUGHT it enough to know it turns a damn sight better than you give it credit for.
Tell ya what, I'll take a P-47D-25 and you take a P-51 (either) and we'll do some comparison flying. You will find that the Jug eats the P-51 alive in a turn fight.
My regards,
Widewing