Best Prop Plane??????

[BaldEagl]

I doubt I'd say it's the best but I've really fallen in love with the Yak-9U.  Good climb rate, fast, lethal, rugged, decent roll-rate and turns ok.  Oh... plus it's a small target.  If only it had WEP so you could accelerate in it...

[SteveBailey]

Originally posted by Krusty
WW was perhaps exaggerating with his "everything but 190s" comment.

 

No, he was stating a fact based on actual flight testing.

I don't think even YOU can claim the P47 turns better than the P51.

With full flaps, ALL the 47 models out turn the 51D.  The 51D is the late war version of the 51, which is what i have been referring to all along. check the charts yourself.  

I'm saying you're incorrect to state it's the worst turning plane in all the late ware US planes, and that it accelerates slowly, and etc etc etc.

What late war US fighter does the 51D outturn? In fact, name any us fighter the 51D out turns.

I said, compared to it's late war contemporaries, it's acceleration is mediocre. Late war contemporaries? The K4, D9, La7.  Interestingly enough, at typical MA combat alts,  ALL these same planes out accelerate, outturn, outclimb, are faster, and turn better than the 51D. Additionally, they are ALL more lethal.
My data is irrefutable.  Check out gonzo's chart yourself.  As i've stated from the beginning, and it is fact:

n summary, the 51 is decidely outclassed by its contemporaries in the LW, as it stands today

  This is what I've been saying from the beginning and the numbers at gonzoville clearly show this.  I'm not sure why you disageree with the numbers, but they are there in print.

I'm not some wild fanatical P51 fan

I am.    I fly the 51D about 95% of the time. If you don't believe me and care enough to dispute it, you can look up my expanded stats. My in game name is:  Steve

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Krusty
WW was perhaps exaggerating with his "everything but 190s" comment.

No exaggeration whatsoever.

I don't think even YOU can claim the P47 turns better than the P51.

P-47s out-turn the P-51s. Flaps only gets the P-51 dead sooner.

You've seen the turn radius chart, with full flaps the P51B matches the P38 for turning with flaps, and the 51D is a little behind that.

Any P-38 will out-turn any P-51... And do so easily.

Not to mention all the speed/climb/acceleration data I included (secondary to the turn radius, but still a factor in "suck" or "not suck"...

P-38J/L accelerates and climbs better than the P-51s. P-47s, especially the D-40 are close behind. Close enough that escape by running is not an option unless you have an E advantage to start. The higher you go, the closer the P-47s get to the P-51D in acceleration, and eventually pass it. P-38s just open the gap further as you go up.

Hey I'm not saying it accelerates like a 163, or that it turns like a a6m2. I'm saying you're incorrect to state it's the worst turning plane in all the late ware US planes, and that it accelerates slowly, and etc etc etc.

Krusty, how about flying the P-51 against a P-38L, Co-E and Co-alt starting at 300 mph. If you fight, you will die. Ditto against the Jugs. The RAF considered the Mustang Mk.III the most agile fighter after the Spitfires. In fact, in direct combat comparisons, they considered it a toss up as to which would win.

In AH2, the P-51 is outclassed by the Spitfires( Mk. IX, VIII, XVI and XIV) in every category except max speed.

Acceleration: " The Spitfire has the best acceleration, followed by the Mustang III, Tempest V, Thunderbolt and Meteor III."

Climb: "To a lesser extent the same applies to rate of climb. Almost invariably the aircraft with the best power to weight ratio will have the best rate of climb. Here the Spitfire XIV comes into its own, followed by the Mustang III, the Tempest V and then the Thunderbolt II. This aircraft incidentally, is actually better than the Mustang and Tempest at around 28,000ft."

Turning Circles: "Once again, the Spitfire maintains top place, followed by the Mustang, Meteor, Tempest and Thunderbolt. Too much regard to this order should not be paid, particularly by the individual who will angrily recall the occasion when he out-turned a Meteor when flying his Tempest. This sort of thing is inevitable, but we can only repeat that where the circumstances are common to both aircraft, these positions are not far wrong."

How about the Mustang Mk.III Tactical Trials?

BRIEF TACTICAL COMPARISON WITH SPITFIRE XIV
Maximum Endurance
25.            By comparison the Spitfire XIV has no endurance.

Maximum speed
26.            There is practically nothing to choose in maximum speed.

Maximum climb
27.            The Spitfire XIV is very much better.

Dive
28.            As for the Spitfire IX. The Mustang pulls away; but less markedly.

Turning Circle
29.            The Spitfire XIV is better.

Rate of Roll
30.            Advantage tends to be with the Spitfire XIV.

Conclusion
31.            With the exception of endurance, no conclusions should be drawn, as these two aircraft should never be enemies. The choice is a matter of taste.

How about comparison to the Bf 109G?


Maximum Speed
45.            The Mustang III is faster at all heights. Its best heights, by comparison, are below 16,000ft (30mph faster approx) and above 25,000ft (30mph increasing to 50mph at 30,000ft).

Maximum climb
46.            This is rather similar. The Mustang is very slightly better above 25,000ft but worse below 20,000ft.

Zoom Climb
47.            Unfortunately the Me. 109G appears to have a very good high-speed climb, making the aircraft very similar in a zoom climb.

Dive
48.            On the other hand in defense the Mustang can still increase the range in a prolonged dive.

Turning Circle
49.            The Mustang III is greatly superior.

Rate of Roll
50.            Not much to choose. In defense (in a tight spot) a rapid change of direction will throw the Me.109G’s sight off. This is because the 109G’s maximum roll is embarrassing (slots keep opening)

Conclusions
51.            In attack, the Mustang can always catch the Me.109G, except in any sort of climb (unless there is a high overtaking speed). In defense, a steep turn should be the first maneuver, followed if necessary, by a dive (below 20,000ft). A high-speed climb will unfortunately not increase the range. If above 25,000ft. keep above by climbing or all out level.

There's lots of data that supports the P-51s being better than they are in the game.

I'm not some wild fanatical P51 fan, but I've flown it enough and FOUGHT it enough to know it turns a damn sight better than you give it credit for.

Tell ya what, I'll take a P-47D-25 and you take a P-51 (either) and we'll do some comparison flying. You will find that the Jug eats the P-51 alive in a turn fight.

My regards,

Widewing

[Oogly50]

Pwnt.

Also, widewing, check your emails.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Oogly50
Pwnt.

Also, widewing, check your emails.

Please forward it again... I just disabled some filters that sometimes boot stuff I want from the server.

My regards,

Widewing

[Karnak]

Kinda makes the Spit XIV sound better than it is in AH2 as well, particularly the roll rate comments.

Of course, what those brief comments don't cover is acceleration at different speeds or roll rates at different speeds.


SgtPappy,

The Spitfire Mk XVI is just a Spitfire LF.Mk IX with an American version of the engine, Merlin 266 instead of a Merlin 66 (the Mk XVI in AH even uses Merlin 66 critical alts instead of Merlin 266 critical alts).  The Mk IX in AH is an F.Mk IX with a lower powered, but with higher critical alts, Merlin 61.

[CPW]

1. Tempest

2. Fw190D9&Spitfire

3. F4U

[bozon]

Comparing full flaps turning circle is non-sense and people take it way too seriously. Even in this case the turning circle is smaller by less than 10%. I'm pretty sure that the P51 can sustain a better turn rate in an actual sustained "indian circle" fight. The slightly better turn radius, obtained at very poor turn rate will not be enough to save the jug (given competent pilots).

The jug seem to out turn the P51 mainly because it blows its E faster than any other plane, and pilots are comfortable in doing so thanks to its stability. I doubt any WWII pilot would consider this an advantage though, they'd rather keep their speed in the turn.

[SteveBailey]

Originally posted by bozon
Comparing full flaps turning circle is non-sense and people take it way too seriously. Even in this case the turning circle is smaller by less than 10%. I'm pretty sure that the P51 can sustain a better turn rate in an actual sustained "indian circle" fight. The slightly better turn radius, obtained at very poor turn rate will not be enough to save the jug (given competent pilots).

The jug seem to out turn the P51 mainly because it blows its E faster than any other plane, and pilots are comfortable in doing so thanks to its stability. I doubt any WWII pilot would consider this an advantage though, they'd rather keep their speed in the turn.

*sigh*  So once we show you the 51 is outturned by a 47 it's nonsense .  And then in the next paragraph, it "seems" to outturn the 51?  The data is there, it does not support your assertions so you try to marginilize the data.  You should be a politician.  

A WWII pilot would tell you that the 51D is grossly, criminally undermodeled in AH.  There is data to support that too but I don't feel strong enough about this game to take up that argument w/ HTC.  

Anyway, as has been established many times, I'll rewrite my original, factual statement:  "In summary, the 51 is decidely outclassed by its contemporaries in the LW, as it stands today"

[Widewing]

Originally posted by bozon
Comparing full flaps turning circle is non-sense and people take it way too seriously. Even in this case the turning circle is smaller by less than 10%. I'm pretty sure that the P51 can sustain a better turn rate in an actual sustained "indian circle" fight. The slightly better turn radius, obtained at very poor turn rate will not be enough to save the jug (given competent pilots).

The jug seem to out turn the P51 mainly because it blows its E faster than any other plane, and pilots are comfortable in doing so thanks to its stability. I doubt any WWII pilot would consider this an advantage though, they'd rather keep their speed in the turn.

It has nothing to do with E bleed in the Jug.

With full flaps, a P-47D-25 sustains a turning radius over 50 feet smaller than a P-51D with full flaps, as well as a faster rate of turn.

We've tested these individually and head to head. I've said it many times; the drag model update absolutely killed the P-51s and their ability to maneuver at speeds below corner velocity with flaps deployed. Anything more than 3 notches of flaps is virtually worthless. All you do is trade a small decease in radius for a big hit in turn rate.

My regards,

Widewing

[64kills]

wide wing check PM's

[Benny Moore]

Widewing, weren't the British officially running the Mustang Mark III running 80" Hg. MAP?  That's why things don't add up, I think.  The British were running it even higher than the U.S.A.A.F. guys ran it in the field, and both of them ran it heads and shoulders above what the pilot manual numbers were.  We've got the pilot manual rated P-51, not the 72 or 80 inch rated one!  No wonder it feels sluggish.

So, what I'm saying is that the P-51's not actually modelled incorrectly, it's just not running as high of a boost as it should be.  We've got a down-rated P-51, as they arrived from the factories.  The same is true of the P-38 and P-47, of course.  Hitech, of course, has chosen not to model them as the actual units boosted them in the field (officially approved, I might add).

[Karnak]

Benny,

That wouldn't really change the turn radius much.  WWII fighters produced such low thrust that it really didn't help them turn much.  I seem to recall Widewing saying the Spitfire Mk XIV produced about 1,700lbs of thrust and the F4F-4 produced about 1,100lbs.  Not much to begin with and not all that much different even though the Spit XIV massively outpowers the F4F-4.

[Viking]

Originally posted by Benny Moore
...and both of them ran it heads and shoulders above what the pilot manual numbers were.

I call BS.

[bozon]

Originally posted by Widewing
It has nothing to do with E bleed in the Jug.

With full flaps, a P-47D-25 sustains a turning radius over 50 feet smaller than a P-51D with full flaps, as well as a faster rate of turn.

We've tested these individually and head to head. I've said it many times; the drag model update absolutely killed the P-51s and their ability to maneuver at speeds below corner velocity with flaps deployed. Anything more than 3 notches of flaps is virtually worthless. All you do is trade a small decease in radius for a big hit in turn rate.

No plane fought with full flaps. All turning evaluations in comparative tests were done with no flaps.

I don't want to belittle your tests WW, but people tend to take them as gospel. You tested very specific and extreme ends of the envelope. This is NOT representative of an actual sustained turning fight where you balance radius and rate of turn - not min/max one of them. Simply due to better power loading and wing loading, P51 can SUSTAIN better turn rate. What actually happens is that jug pilots in a knife fight go for "all or nothing" moves using only instantaneous turns, never sustaining them. Going round and round vs. P51D is death - it will either come around behind you, or gain E and drop on your head. The Jug's way to counter it will be switching to a linear fight, not circular.