Author Topic: A Very Long Post (Read 6002 times)

DamnedRen · « **Reply #45 on:** September 07, 2007, 02:19:39 PM »

I gotta call some chest thumping by Vudak.

Sorry, but the story sounds good but you had no idea what the guy's skill level was. You never mentioned the distance he was at in the rabbit mode. Was it D800? D1000? D1500? Do you know for a fact that he know how's to rev back into you at that distance? Do you think he might have been extending to reset the fight? Were you just mad because he didn't immediately turn back into you? Where do you get off saying because some guy was fighting his way is wrong? Perhaps he's turned back into 50 hogs in the past month and died most of the time and he was trying something else? Not neccesarily running but trying to think of something different that he might try?

You make a lot of assumptions to tell everyone the guy got away from you. Ah well, such is life in the big city. I hate to say this but every single fight is not about staying in it til your dead. Expecially if you are trying out new things because you haven't been flying that long. I routinely teach people that they NEVER have to stay in a fight that is going south on them. Just extend and reset the fight. It's pretty stupid to stay in a fight you KNOW you are losing. Unless you want to prove that you can die AGAIN. A reset for an old vet might be D600. A reset for a guy in a particular type of plane might be D600 or it might be D1500 depending on his skill level for some guys it could be D2500!

The issue is just because some guy ran and you couldn't catch him is no reason to tell everyone about their faults and complain just because he wouldn't obllige you and turn back into the fight immediatley.

Vudak also mentions once someone has the basics they shoud be able to expand on it in the MA. To that I answer yes and no. There is no subsitute for stick time. The more you get the better you begin to control your ride. There is no substitute for QUALITY stick time. Just getting up in the MA and die'n all the time is not quality stick time. As a trainer I had a guy that had been flying for over 2 years. He flew the plane excellent but was having problems he couldn't quite figure out. I told him to come shoot me up. He came in, we did a few moves and I watched him pull over on an oblique angle and said, "that's cool but whacha doing?" He response was I wasn't where he expected me to be. Once I heard that it was very easy to fix his problem. A hour later he was back in the MA scoring 4 kills on his first sortie, in a plane he had just begun flying as a change of pace. Tactics are another completely different issue. You learn them. Trial and error can take years if someone doesn't show you. And then you don't know why it worked but just that it worked. The concern is most folks want instant gratification. Kinda like a $1 scratch off lotto ticket. That's why the HO model promotes that type of behavior. It's almost become like a boxed computer game because ANYONE has a chance to win a fight without doing anything to better their flying. It's not the vets that foster that as they normally evade the HO and kill the guy. The problem is the noob's are doing it to other noob's and they are winning 50% of the time. They don't realize they are doing it to another noob so they continue to do it. Most people don't even know it's fairly easy to set up a guy for kill. They are nothing more than a target in the air. It's not their fault. No one ever showed them what was happening other than it was happening to them over and over again. But, just like Vudak, they like the game but are only doing what they can do with the information about dogfighting that they possess.

So chest thumping about your skills and asking on 200 why someone is running is silly. Taking someone to the DA to prove how great they are is silly. If ya wanna help someone take them over to the TA and show them the whys. If you cannot explain why you are able to get on their 6 and shoot them down or don't have any idea why they rolled out when they had the advantage then suggest they visit the TA and get with a trainer who can critique them and help them get better.

The one point everyone seems to be missing is if these new folks get better at dogfighting then you will get a much better fight in the MA. If all you do is ask, "why are you running?", you are not doing anything to help the guy. Also, a new guy banging his head against the wall trying to figure why the other guy beat him without any knowledge of dogfighting skills is a very, very long road to getting better. A hour with any trainer will make up for a lot head banging and years of trying to figure it out.

It's very easy to criticize a new guy but sometimes very hard to actually help him. If you wanna criticize him do it on chl 200. At least we can mute it.

B@tfinkV · « **Reply #46 on:** September 07, 2007, 03:11:15 PM »

as usual Ren, ur running headlong and strong in a direction that no one quite knows how you started on. cant fault your conviction and determination indeed. excelent use of capital letters, this assures us that even complete morons like me or vudak cant fail to see your profound point.

DamnedRen · « **Reply #47 on:** September 07, 2007, 03:18:49 PM »

Sometime's it needs to be done that way when I think you might not get it

Nothing profound just taking chest thumping out of the equation and bringing up training, or the lack there of, and the ramifications of whining about someone running away from some dude that can't catch him.

I'm sorry if everyone doesn't play the game exactly the way some guys want them to. I suggest let them learn and they will give everyone a much better fight.

FALCONWING · « **Reply #48 on:** September 07, 2007, 03:38:21 PM »

well said ren...i understand exactly where you are going....

too many "vets" cant understand how a new pilot might approach the game...or how someone who has been killed by f4u's 1v1 in the past might choose to handle the situation...or what is truly going on...

an example..the other night i up a f4u1c and go over an enemy airfield...my phone rings and its family so i dive to the deck and head for home....while chatting i look back and see a p-51d about 1000 out...he follows me all the way back to my airbase and the phone converstaion ends...so i reverse on him and we turn 2x and he heads away back to his base...i call it the longest b-n-z pass ive ever had from a pony...

but the point is he could have been on ch 200 berating me because form his end im "running" and on my end im trying not to lose a perk plane while being polite to my grandma...

Vudak · « **Reply #49 on:** September 07, 2007, 03:41:57 PM »

Hi Ren,

(I'm sitting down at someone else's computer in Virginia, so this will have to be brief...)

I've been playing this game long enough to recognize when someone could use some help... This guy did. There was a serious reason he was the 2nd one I targeted in the 2v1. Basically, he was never the threat.

Also, I mentioned in my post I was thinking about taking him to the TA, not the DA... Because it was pretty obvious that, no, he doesn't know how to rev back at any distance. That's something that can be fixed, if someone wants to put in the time to fix it.

My point is that how can you offer someone that help, without being seen as, well, a chest thumper these days? I've seen some bad things said on 200... I didn't think my comments qualified in the slightest, so I was wondering what the golden phrase is, so to speak...

And I mentioned in a latter post that the MA really isn't the best place to expand such skills (how can you really expand your fighting skills in a place where traditionally no one wants to fight?)

If you want to call it chest thumping, well, that's ok, Ren. I think maybe you don't know me so well, but hey, I'm human too.

Vudak · « **Reply #50 on:** September 07, 2007, 03:49:41 PM »

Also, Ren, we seriously differ in some philosophies... I understand you've been a trainer for many, many years, but I respectfully disagree with you in telling people not to stick around in fights gone south.

That's kind of like telling a goalie to leave after the 2nd period if the score's not going his way... You never know what he could have picked up in the 3rd.

dedalos · « **Reply #51 on:** September 07, 2007, 03:54:09 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by FALCONWING
well said ren...i understand exactly where you are going....

too many "vets" cant understand how a new pilot might approach the game...or how someone who has been killed by f4u's 1v1 in the past might choose to handle the situation...or what is truly going on...

an example..the other night i up a f4u1c and go over an enemy airfield...

Ohhh this vet understands exactly what you were doing

Dichotomy · « **Reply #52 on:** September 07, 2007, 04:00:53 PM »

Nice post Vudak

FALCONWING · « **Reply #53 on:** September 07, 2007, 04:50:20 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by dedalos
Ohhh this vet understands exactly what you were doing

cool...pm me the lotto numbers please...

DamnedRen · « **Reply #54 on:** September 07, 2007, 05:39:59 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Vudak
Also, Ren, we seriously differ in some philosophies... I understand you've been a trainer for many, many years, but I respectfully disagree with you in telling people not to stick around in fights gone south.

That's kind of like telling a goalie to leave after the 2nd period if the score's not going his way... You never know what he could have picked up in the 3rd.

I absolutely agree with you that we differ in these particular philophies. If you are of a mind that this game should be a mindless, endless game of Tomb Raider (without the cheats) then yes I absolutely diagree with you. The idea of getting up 100 times (ala tomb raider) to find out, "hey wait, I shoulda done that?" as opposed to learning how to do it right the first time is something for the box game folks. This is a very fast moving chess game and just as you learn how to attack someone you had better learn to reset a fight at your own choosing. If not, why bother taking off? Just sit on the end of the runway and announce on Chl200 for everyone to come vulch you.

There is a huge difference between flying in combat (virtual or not) and being the goalie in a game. I hope you can see that.

You philosphy, imho, is akin to saying, please, take off, mindlessly come to fight me, no matter what, so I can shoot you down and get the kill. Then do it again so I can shoot you down again. Golly, ain't this fun for you? It sure is for me!

Flying smart, extending, reseting a fight is not cowardly. It's merely a tactic to regain a lost advantage. Nothing more. If you think that's not a part of this game then why bother offering any advice? If the guy decided he needed to bug that was his choice to do it? Why is it always lame when someone doesn't want to fight the fight your way? You said it yourself, you got into a fight and got shot down. You came back to the fight, got one and the other ran. Who cares what his plane was? You said you were having fun. Do you honestly think he wasn't? He was playing the only way he knew how. Everyone was at that point at some time. They overcame it and became better players or lef t the game. Being an old vet as you say why didn't you pull off and go look for another fight. The fight was over at that point. Or did you figure you would eventually run him down but got jumped by another higher guy coming in? There are many to be had without worrying about one spitty.

I can't remember just how many times a night some low guy didn't set up a few guys by faking a few passes then draggin the guy off to his squaddies waiting above. That was in another game, long ago. It happened every night. The run is no different than a rope a dope. You sucker the guy up and kill him as he stalls. But, the issue remains the same. The guy ran. Another countrymate come over and dropped in. Why did you run? Who died? Who's on 200 asking the question? The spitty ran to help and you died. He didn't fight your fight. Sorry. End of story. Move on to the next fight.

BTW, there are very few old vets that ever talk smack on the radio. They're having too much fun. Turning off 200 is helpful. Squelching those who need it works too. Helping those who ask for help also works. The guy that ran will ask for help when he finally figures it out. Or, maybe he and his buddies just set you up to die.

As far as real help, ask around. you will find I saddle up on a guy and let some newer guy get in to try his hand at shooting the guy down. I never fire a shot and offer advice as to how to saddle up as the fight progresses. He gets the kill and learned something. All it cost me was coverin his 6 a lil. When was the last time you actually let someone jump in and take the kill? Note: a guys who's flown a few years is not an old vet for those folks reading this.

Point of view is everything as long as you are open to more than one point of view. You've shared yours by starting out discussing something Deli touched on. IMHO it went down hill from there.

It really doesn't hurt to agree to disagree on something as long as you take it for it's meant to be. An opinion and not a personal attack.

Hey, yer one of the old guys so I respect who you are. I merely disagreed with the line this thread took after the "Deli suggested" part. I think every new guy will go through the dyin stage, the running stage, the sputnik stage. You name it they are gonna experience it. Didn't you?

Ya know, I remember watching a squadie drag 4-5 guys deep into our territory and giving us a chance to shut the door behind them before dropin in an murder'n em all. Wow, that was fun!

Murdr · « **Reply #55 on:** September 07, 2007, 06:00:25 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by DamnedRen
This is a very fast moving chess game and just as you learn how to attack someone you had better learn to reset a fight at your own choosing.

Quoted because it sounds like something I would say.

Don't get me wrong Vudak. Even this can be taken to its lamest extreme, where guys use it when they have the advantage, but won't fight without an all but unbeatable advantage, but I'm mostly on the same page with Ren.

The Fugitive · « **Reply #56 on:** September 07, 2007, 06:25:15 PM »

Well I might be wrong, but I think the point of Vudaks post isn't so much the flying the other guy did, it was more along the idea of people being civil to each other.

In his example he perceived that the enemy spit was a guy that didn't have a good grasp of ACM or fighting in general. So he asked the spit guy why he did what he did. Maybe he could have started with" you were in a better position before, why did you give it up an extend?" So in his mind he was just trying to help.

Had the enemy spit driver been more civil he could have said "so and so, the guy you just shot down, told me it was you and I knew I didn't stand a chance against you alone", or "I'm new to the spit and wasn't sure against a hog 1 vs 1, I was extending trying to get an advantage back." either way just being polite would be nice.

Why aren't some people polite? a lot of these guys are learning the "attitude" from some of those who play this game just love to trash talk. So they think its the "cool" thing to do, or this spit driver was embarrassed knowing he ran away, and only came back when he could try for an easy kill. Maybe deep inside he knows hes a weak flyer and thats what embarrassed him.

The whole point is, if the "vets" or the "trash talkers" toned it down a bit, maybe the new guys wouldn't pick up that attitude. And maybe if the new guys, or weak flyers didn't jump on the "defensive" with their attitudes they might find more people willing to spend that hour or two in the TA, or have someone tell them how they lost the fight, or just pass a pointer or two along.

Murdr · « **Reply #57 on:** September 07, 2007, 06:57:19 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by The Fugitive
Why aren't some people polite? a lot of these guys are learning the "attitude" from some of those who play this game just love to trash talk. So they think its the "cool" thing to do, or this spit driver was embarrassed knowing he ran away, and only came back when he could try for an easy kill. Maybe deep inside he knows hes a weak flyer and thats what embarrassed him.

If you listened closely to a recent video bio, you'll hear that this is exactly the kind of feedback they got that drove them to learn better ACM. It's not always trash talk for the sake of trash talk. It does have the desired effect sometimes.

SkyRock · « **Reply #58 on:** September 07, 2007, 07:08:57 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Murdr
If you listened closely to a recent video bio, you'll hear that this is exactly the kind of feedback they got that drove them to learn better ACM. It's not always trash talk for the sake of trash talk. It does have the desired effect sometimes.

hee hee NathBDP! Boy that got me soo mad when he called me a lame skilless picker, but it was true, and that's why it got me stirred up so much.

If you are getting your adrenlalin(enjoyment) by being sneaky and cowardly, then you will never stop doing what the spit did. It's two different personality types. One type, like VUDAK, actually found the real adrenalin to be the fight, and the other type, like Falconwng(he flies like the spit did in this story), continues to find the adrenalin in cowardly run/cherry/HO tactics! I have film of Falconwng the other night in a horde trying to cherry me, he gets reversed so goes vert and tries a front quarter/HO, when he misses, he runs(in his la7 against my k-4) right up in under his overwhelming horde that was almost over my base. As soon as I start reversing the 4-6 cons that jumped me, I see him turn around and go for the cherry(of course he misses again) and then gets super aggressive tryin to steal the kill from the others(now at least 8) that were trying to get me. He still didn't get the kill on me.

He's been playing since '96! LMAO ROFL:rofl

What a waste of game time! I have no problems calling people like him out as just plain cowardly game types!!!!

Mark

Murdr · « **Reply #59 on:** September 07, 2007, 07:22:08 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Widewing
5) Many whine about HOs... If your dogfighting ability is limited to flying straight at the enemy with guns blazing, then it's time to get some help with both BFM and ACM. On the other hand, a true HO means that both pilots brought guns to bear.. If only one does, than it's a different story. 90% of the whines associated with HOs are due to the fact that the whiner lost. You don't hear the winner whining about the HO, do you?

That reminded me of a fight. I just finished off a N1K2 when I look back and see a P-38 bearing down on my high 6 d1k. I did everything I could to take my P-38 in a flight path that the bogie couldn't follow. This in hopes to get some separation to maneuver inside of. We both reversed on each other with about 300 yards seapration at reversal. I took his wing, he took my pilot and I died. No complaints, I converted a tailchase to guns solutions at close quarters. It wasn't a joust, but a race to get guns angles first. Also, I vulched the guy about 10 mins earler, so I asked to get jumped.

Great post Widewing. Oh, the other guy was some putz named HiTech.