Author Topic: General Climate Discussion  (Read 93658 times)

Offline lazs2

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #375 on: November 07, 2007, 02:22:54 PM »
akh.. I have linked everything I have ever said... but looking back..  I can't recall you ever giving a source for anything you have claimed..  I have asked you repeatedly to prove the water vapor theory and how much man is contributing.

where are the sources?

angus.. maybe hortlund doesn't get PNG'ed because I don't care.. I don't whine like a little girl when people call me names... I think everyones reaction to his hissy fit was punishment enough..

on the coal fires....

http://itotd.com/articles/346/pennsylvania-coal-fires/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mine_fire

http://www.offroaders.com/album/centralia/centralia.htm

http://www.post-gazette.com/healthscience/20030215coalenviro4p4.asp

"The Chinese fires also make a big, hidden contribution to global warming through the greenhouse effect, scientists said. Each year they release 360 million tons of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, as much as all the cars and light trucks in the United States.

Soot from the fires in China, India and other Asian countries are a source of the "Asian Brown Haze." It's a 2-mile thick cloud of soot, acid droplets and other material that sometimes stretches across South Asia from Afghanistan to Sri Lanka."


but hey....   feel free to ask me to link anything I have ever said about global warming scam...  after all.. I am not a scientist..  I just read what they say.

lazs

Offline Arlo

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #376 on: November 07, 2007, 02:58:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
akh... finds arlo amusing..  do you also now abandon your previous co2 theory and now think it is man made water vapor that causes global warming?
 


Ahh, you're confused (as usual). I challenged AKIron's claim that the singular effect of increased cloud cover is a completely unfathomable mystery. (We've agreed to disagree on that - which is fine.) If you want to actually argue with me (and not be just the target of my amusement) you'll have to argue with what I post (not what you imagine you think you wanted me to post). Then I may be tempted to take you as seriously as you take yourself. Good luck with that. :D

Offline Angus

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #377 on: November 07, 2007, 03:03:21 PM »
Well, there is also a candle in my livingroom, and it takes very little oxygen to burn.
You don't seem to understand this, - I hardly belive it.
OK, I go down to a 10 year old level, and say that if the fires take very little oxygen, it means they deliver very little co2 as well. Can you understand why?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Arlo

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #378 on: November 07, 2007, 03:10:40 PM »
Quote

More water vapor released into the atmosphere generates more cloud cover, cooling the planet and allowing the oceans to absorb more water vapor, thereby...etc, etc, etc.  In other words, the planetary climate is self-regulating (an amazing design, from an engineering standpoint).

 



"Recent reversal of the trend
 
Sun-blocking aerosols around the world steadily declined (red line) since the 1991 eruption of Mount Pinatubo, according to satellite estimates. Credit: Michael Mishchenko, NASAWild et al. using measurements over land report brightening since 1990.[27][9][28] and Pinker et al.[29] found that slight dimming continued over land while brightening occurred over the ocean.[30] Hence, over the land surface, Wild et al and Pinker et al disagree. A 2007 NASA sponsored satellite-based study sheds light on the puzzling observations by other scientists that the amount of sunlight reaching Earth's surface had been steadily declining in recent decades, suddenly started to rebound around 1990. This switch from a "global dimming" trend to a "brightening" trend happened just as global aerosol levels started to decline.[31][26]

It is likely that at least some of this change, particularly over Europe, is due to decreases in pollution. Most governments of developed nations have done more to reduce aerosols released into the atmosphere, which helps reduce global dimming, than to reduce CO2 emissions.

Sulfate aerosols have declined significantly since 1970 with the Clean Air Act in the United States and similar policies in Europe. The Clean Air Act was strengthened in 1977 and 1990. According to the EPA, from 1970 to 2005, total emissions of the six principal air pollutants, including PM’s, dropped by 53 percent in the US. In 1975, the masked effects of trapped greenhouse gases finally started to emerge and have dominated ever since.[32]

The Baseline Surface Radiation Network (BSRN) has been collecting surface measurements. BSRN was started in the early 1990s and updated the archives in this time. Analysis of recent data reveals that the surface of the planet has brightened by about 4% in the past decade. The brightening trend is corroborated by other data, including satellite analyses."


Relationship to hydrological cycle
 
This figure shows the level of agreement between a climate model driven by five factors and the historical temperature record. The negative component identified as "sulfate" is associated with the aerosol emissions blamed for global dimming.Further information: Hydrological cycle
Pollution produced by humans may be seriously weakening the Earth's water cycle - reducing rainfall and threatening fresh water supplies. A 2001 study by researchers at the Scripps Institution of Oceanography suggests that tiny particles of soot and other pollutants have a significant effect on the hydrological cycle. "The energy for the hydrological cycle comes from sunlight. As sunlight heats the ocean, water escapes into the atmosphere and falls out as rain. So as aerosols cut down sunlight by large amounts, they may be spinning down the hydrological cycle of the planet." according to prof. V. Ramanathan.[33]

Large scale changes in weather patterns may also have been caused by global dimming. Climate models speculatively suggest that this reduction in sunshine at the surface may have led to the failure of the monsoon in sub-Saharan Africa during the 1970s and 1980s, together with the associated famines such as the Sahel drought, caused by Northern hemisphere pollution cooling the Atlantic.[34] Because of this, the Tropical rain belt may not have risen to its northern latitudes, thus causing an absence of seasonal rains. This claim is not universally accepted and is very difficult to test.

It is also concluded that the imbalance between global dimming and global warming at the surface leads to weaker turbulent heat fluxes to the atmosphere. This means globally reduced evaporation and hence precipitation occur in a dimmer and warmer world, which could ultimately lead to a more humid atmosphere in which it rains less.[35]

A natural form of large scale environmental shading/dimming has been identified that affected the 2006 northern hemisphere hurricane season. The NASA study found that several major dust storms in June and July in the Sahara desert sent dust drifting over the Atlantic Ocean and through several effects caused cooling of the waters - and thus deadening the development of hurricanes.[36][37]

Possible use to mitigate global warming

Some scientists have suggested using aerosols to stave off the effects of global warming as an emergency measure. Russian expert Mikhail Budyko understood this relationship very early on. In 1974, he suggested that if global warming became a problem, we could cool down the planet by burning sulfur in the stratosphere, which would create a haze.[42][43][44] According to Ramanathan (1988), an increase in planetary albedo of just 0.5 percent is sufficient to halve the effect of a CO2 doubling.[45]

However, we would still face many problems, such as:

*Using sulfates causes environmental problems such as acid rain[46]

*Using carbon black causes human health problems[46]
 
*Dimming causes ecological problems such as changes in evaporation and rainfall patterns[46]

*Droughts and/or increased rainfall cause problems for agriculture[46]
Aerosol has a relatively short lifetime

"Ideas that we should increase aerosol emissions to counteract global warming have been described as a 'Faustian bargain' because that would imply an ever increasing amount of emissions in order to match the accumulated greenhouse gas in the atmosphere, with ever increasing monetary and health costs."[47] In essence, the sources of both greenhouse gases and air particulates must be addressed."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_dimming

(If anyone thinks this material strengthens their argument - no matter what your argument is - then by all means thank me instead of inventing a reason to get defensive. Thank you.) :D
« Last Edit: November 07, 2007, 03:19:33 PM by Arlo »

Offline Angus

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #379 on: November 07, 2007, 03:28:37 PM »
I have read an article on the Sulphure emergency method and some kinds of promoted application, such as using ballons!
Anyway, one must bear in mind that here is also a gang on the thread that prompts statements as "it isn't warming", as well as "It ain't CO2", and I find it hard to belive that they would buy the fact that we have any force to cool the planet :t
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Arlo

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #380 on: November 07, 2007, 04:22:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
I have read an article on the Sulphure emergency method and some kinds of promoted application, such as using ballons!
Anyway, one must bear in mind that here is also a gang on the thread that prompts statements as "it isn't warming", as well as "It ain't CO2", and I find it hard to belive that they would buy the fact that we have any force to cool the planet :t


Yeah, I see a lot of conflicting arguments from individuals, at times. I also see them attempt to berate who they're arguing with for not presenting a logical argument. I even see the argument they claim to be illogical something they projected upon someone else. Then if they can't come up with anything better they just rattle off presumtuous accusations and claim victory while throwing in the towel. Then they often grab the towel back and start all over.

It's a right regular pattern and reveals more than most seem aware of.

:D

Offline Sabre

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #381 on: November 07, 2007, 04:25:11 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Angus
Increased water vapour is a normal result of a warmer air. And BTW, cloudforming will take more available water vapur to be equal to what it was at a lower temperature. A hotter climate means more carrying capability from the atmosphere. So, increased vapour is a result of atmospheric warming.
And although CO2 is reported to be lagging (from the icecores), CO2 and warmer climate hold hands up and down the curves like a couple in highschool. Warming over a certain level will also tend to increase CO2, - sort of a ping-pong effect.


I'm not sure I follow you, Angus.  Are you saying you don't believe that the data shows CO2 lagging temperature?  Or are you saying that warming causes an increase in CO2?  I'm honestly just trying to understand your position here.  If CO2 levels lag temperature, than CO2 levels can not be driving the temperature changes.  This is fundamental to the debate.  So draconian efforts to reduce human-produced CO2 are useless at best, harmful at worse, and in either case take focus away from planetary problems that we can truly influence, like world poverty, violence and oppression.
Sabre
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Offline Angus

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #382 on: November 07, 2007, 04:25:34 PM »
Hehe, sad, but true.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #383 on: November 07, 2007, 04:36:07 PM »
Oh, Sabre:
Warmer climate and raised ocean temperature unleashes CO2 from the biggest buffer, - the sea. If the cause is anything else for starters. Then the effects are countering each other, - increased CO2 raises temps, which also releases more CO2 etc etc.
What's different in our case in the last years is that NOW the CO2 is LEADING. Okay, we know we've added to it, and roughly how much. So hence the conclucion, not just GW, but MMGW. But it's a unique position.
(I still remain sceptic about the totalness of MM, but less with every round)

Oh, BTW, if you were god, and could tune up various gas bars on the planet at will to see what happened, increased co2 would definately cause a GW. Same with you and the kettle, put water in and turn it on, - if it works it's gonna boil in there.

As for the world poverty and welfare, you ain't seen nothing yet if the temperature bar is keeping onwards where it's heading.
As for counter measures for CO2 emissions, I fail to see a downside. It's an opening to new businesses of industry as well as a different approach to useage of land and resources. The first one I'd suspect to get a bloody nose out of those would be a greedy western consumer who wants lots of products for a truly unrealistic price.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline AKH

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #384 on: November 07, 2007, 06:36:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
akh.. I have linked everything I have ever said... but looking back..  I can't recall you ever giving a source for anything you have claimed..  I have asked you repeatedly to prove the water vapor theory and how much man is contributing.

I believe the keyword for evidence is credible - blogs, opinion pieces and wacky personal webpages don't satisfy that criterion.  Maybe in your world, but not in mine.

You do seem to have significant trouble recalling information.  For example, when did you repeatedly ask me to prove "the water vapor theory?"  I certainly don't remember proposing such a theory. Maybe you ought to scroll upthread and refresh your memory?

I suppose you remember this:

Quote
Originally posted by lazs2 "The Chinese fires also make a big, hidden contribution to global warming through the greenhouse effect, scientists said. Each year they release 360 million tons of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, as much as all the cars and light trucks in the United States.

How does this fit with what you said earlier?

Quote
There are coal fires burning underground all around the world... just one in china puts out more co2 than all of the cars and trucks in America.. if you really think co2 is the boogey man... put out the fires.

And before that:

Quote
Co2.. if you still insist on it.. put out a few coal fires... just one in china is producing more co2 than all the cars and trucks in the USA... there are coal fires burning unchecked all over the world. Start there... go ahead.. put em out.. then make it illegal to have a forest fire.. just ban em... if nature starts one... put it out instantly..

Give you enough rope...
AKHoopy Arabian Knights
google koan: "Your assumptions about the lives of others are in direct relation to your naïve pomposity."

Offline AKH

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #385 on: November 07, 2007, 07:00:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
but hey....   feel free to ask me to link anything I have ever said about global warming scam...  after all.. I am not a scientist..  I just read what they say.

lazs

OK - let's start with this one:
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
In fact.. most of their highly scientific computer models don't even include water vapor or clouds. ruins the co2 effect ya see.
AKHoopy Arabian Knights
google koan: "Your assumptions about the lives of others are in direct relation to your naïve pomposity."

Offline Angus

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #386 on: November 08, 2007, 01:53:57 AM »
Hehe, you found it. I remembered this one :aok
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #387 on: November 08, 2007, 02:39:13 AM »
And it has a point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_effect#Greenhouse_gases


"In the Earth’s atmosphere, the dominant infrared absorbing gases are water vapor, carbon dioxide, and ozone (O3). "

And more on CO2

"For example, carbon dioxide is a linear molecule, but it has an important vibrational mode in which the molecule bends with the carbon in the middle moving one way and the oxygens on the ends moving the other way, creating some charge separation, a dipole moment, thus carbon dioxide molecules can absorb IR radiation. Collisions will immediately transfer this energy to heating the surrounding gas"
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline wrag

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #388 on: November 08, 2007, 06:16:30 AM »
The founder of the weather channel speaks out on Global warming..............


http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2007/11/07/weather-channel-founder-global-warming-greatest-scam-history

his take on it SEEMS similar to mine.
It's been said we have three brains, one cobbled on top of the next. The stem is first, the reptilian brain; then the mammalian cerebellum; finally the over developed cerebral cortex.  They don't work together in awfully good harmony - hence ax murders, mobs, and socialism.

Offline lazs2

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #389 on: November 08, 2007, 08:26:06 AM »
What is funny is that one of his meteoroligists  said that anyone who does not agree that man is causing catastrophic global warming should have their credentials removed and banned from speaking.   pretty much a hortlund kinda
deal.

http://vleeptronz.blogspot.com/2007/01/sky-is-falling-tv-weather-lady-has.html

half of em think it is a scam now.

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=927b9303-802a-23ad-494b-dccb00b51a12

lazs