Author Topic: General Climate Discussion  (Read 105670 times)

Offline AKIron

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #420 on: November 09, 2007, 07:09:26 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Arlo
Hmmmm .... I bet "evolution" can replace "intelligent design" in that sentence just as well. Maybe better. :)


Intelligent design encompasses evolution. If you really want to get into this another thread may be in order.
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Offline Angus

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #421 on: November 09, 2007, 07:49:19 AM »
The oldest cores of Ice found (and they won't get any older, for that ice is already gone) are some 600.000 years old Holden.
120.000 years are way in the caveman business anyway.
And do you then prefere to belive that since the cores in Greenland are only that old because you cannot find any older ice? Do you have any idea of the "prints" that advancing and retreating Ice leaves in the landscape?
Anyway, they're leaving.
Here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retreat_of_glaciers_since_1850#Greenland
Not sure if the 20 mi number comes from "Icecap at all", since the planet sometimes roll around a little, but here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_ice_packs

"The Arctic Sea has not been ice free for a period of at least one million years, and probably much longer"

That belongs to the Arctic where it is.

Here they go down to 40 million years, as a notch to the cooling period starting, but hell didn't freeze over in a day...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_history

"On longer time scales, sediment cores show that the cycles of glacials and interglacials are part of a deepening phase within a prolonged ice age that began with the glaciation of Antarctica approximately 40 million years ago. This deepening phase, and the accompanying cycles, largely began approximately 3 million years ago with the growth of continental ice sheets in the Northern Hemisphere."

So we don't know of the sea ice, but there was continental ice in sheets.

To cut a long story short, the Northern sea-ice is leaving, FAST. Something that has been around for hundreds of thousands of years, if not millions decides to turn to water in a span of less than 100. In the meantime there is a bunch of people saying that it ain't happening.

Our melting speed is actually less than a promille of the time manifested as an absolute minimum BTW, just to get the proportions right.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline lazs2

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #422 on: November 09, 2007, 08:46:28 AM »
Ok.. now this is getting crazy..  always does when you talk to fundamentalists like these alarmists.


crock-its plea for "but we have to DO SOMETHING EVEN IF IT IS WRONG"  Ok... you want to do something because there is some small chance that man may be  the straw that broke the camels back global climate wise?  

What are you doing?  I have linked to sites that say ONE coal fire in china is more co2 than all the cars and trucks in America... out out the damn fire if you are so worried... hell... your precious supermen can't even put out a forest fire.

Put out the coal fires and you will do more to reduce harmless co2 than kiroto could do in it's wildest dreams.

cows... stop eating meat.. convince others not too... the gas from cows and their raising and eating is has more effect on "greenhouse gas" than all of mans co2.

Do those things and you don't need to do anything else according to the math I am seeing... that being.. man is heating the earth with greenhouse gas production and that amount... would be less than the coal fires or the gas from cows and meat animals.

But of course...  that is not what you want.. the problem is manufactured in order to control politics and get funding and build world government and socialism.. if a solution is found that doesn't further that cause... you ignore it.

It is pretty transparent.

and crock-it my little red friend...  you most certainly can do harm by "doing something"  I would show you the smog devices of the 70's that increased pollution... I would show you the premature world wide ban of DDT... I would show you the adding of MTBE in gas in the US,

The end does not justify the means... all we have is the means and they must be justified on their own merit.   Not luck or good intentions.

lazs
« Last Edit: November 09, 2007, 08:55:23 AM by lazs2 »

Offline lazs2

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #423 on: November 09, 2007, 08:47:21 AM »
angus... guess you are alone... hortlund says he doesn't think man made water vapor is causing global warming.

lazs

Offline lazs2

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #424 on: November 09, 2007, 08:52:52 AM »
and of course.. hortlund the potty mouthed denier...

"    Originally posted by lazs2
    hortlund... what data are you using that says that we are a major..or even minor.. contributor to water vapor in the atmosphere?



Basic chemistry. When any sort of fossil fuel is burned, part of the hydrogen combines with oxygen to form water vapor. This is third grade chemistry stuff lasz...which Im sure is why you didnt know about it."

 I asked you how man made water vapor was contributing... you SEEM to be saying it is here...  weren't you the one who showed the water vapor coming off nuclear towers or some such?

Soooo... I am sure that it is clear to anyone that you SEEM to be defending the notion that man made water vapor contributes.

I asked you then and will ask you again... where are the numbers.   You make a statement with nothing to back it up and evade the answer.


If you have no numbers then it would appear that we all agree that it is.....

insignificant and... that we can't and shouldn't bother to do anything about it.

lazs

Offline AKH

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #425 on: November 09, 2007, 10:50:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
Ok.. now this is getting crazy..  always does when you talk to fundamentalists like me.

Fixed.
Quote
I have linked to sites that say ONE coal fire in china is more co2 than all the cars and trucks in America... out out the damn fire if you are so worried... hell... your precious supermen can't even put out a forest fire.

No you haven't.  This is what your link says:
Quote
The Chinese fires also make a big, hidden contribution to global warming through the greenhouse effect, scientists said. Each year they release 360 million tons of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, as much as all the cars and light trucks in the United States.

Can you spot the difference?
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Offline AKIron

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #426 on: November 09, 2007, 12:41:46 PM »
No worries mates, the cure for Global Warming may be just around the corner.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,309738,00.html
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline crockett

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #427 on: November 09, 2007, 12:45:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
Ok.. now this is getting crazy..  always does when you talk to fundamentalists like these alarmists.


crock-its plea for "but we have to DO SOMETHING EVEN IF IT IS WRONG"  Ok... you want to do something because there is some small chance that man may be  the straw that broke the camels back global climate wise?  

What are you doing?  I have linked to sites that say ONE coal fire in china is more co2 than all the cars and trucks in America... out out the damn fire if you are so worried... hell... your precious supermen can't even put out a forest fire.

Put out the coal fires and you will do more to reduce harmless co2 than kiroto could do in it's wildest dreams.

cows... stop eating meat.. convince others not too... the gas from cows and their raising and eating is has more effect on "greenhouse gas" than all of mans co2.

Do those things and you don't need to do anything else according to the math I am seeing... that being.. man is heating the earth with greenhouse gas production and that amount... would be less than the coal fires or the gas from cows and meat animals.

But of course...  that is not what you want.. the problem is manufactured in order to control politics and get funding and build world government and socialism.. if a solution is found that doesn't further that cause... you ignore it.

It is pretty transparent.

and crock-it my little red friend...  you most certainly can do harm by "doing something"  I would show you the smog devices of the 70's that increased pollution... I would show you the premature world wide ban of DDT... I would show you the adding of MTBE in gas in the US,

The end does not justify the means... all we have is the means and they must be justified on their own merit.   Not luck or good intentions.

lazs


Your argument is extreemly weak and flawed. Your whole idea behind your reasoning is that we shouldn't do anything because we "might" be wrong.

Ok so what if we are wrong? Well then all we did was to do what needed to be done anyway. Even if there was no "GCC" at all, do you really think it's that bad of an idea to now clean up our air, water and land?

Do you like a little mercury with your fish? A little smog in with your morning jog? You live in Cali right? Ever been to LA I hear the air is great there.  Is cleaning up our environment and being responsible really that bad?

The other part of your argument is also flawed. You think we shouldn't do anything because China will still be polluting? That's pretty flawed reasoning Larz I mean really. You just sound like you are digging up any excuse to fit your needs.

What do I do? Well for starters I quit my job, that I used to drive 100 plus miles a day. I work from home running my own biz via the Internet and now I buy maybe a tank full of gas a month.

I don't use much electric, my AC is set to 78, just stupid little stuff, that if everyone did it, it would make a difference. That's the point, you don't have to make extreme changes in your daily life, you just had to be more thoughtful.

So what if I'm wrong? Well it won't really hurt my feelings, so I lived a little cleaner and cheaper. Oh well life's a beach.

I have a question for you Larz.. What if you're wrong?
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Offline crockett

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #428 on: November 09, 2007, 12:48:35 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKIron
No worries mates, the cure for Global Warming may be just around the corner.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,309738,00.html


Yea a Global Ice Age due to volcanic ash should sort us out real quick.
See the Earth has it's way of evening things out. It just gets rid of the pests. :D
"strafing"

Offline lazs2

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #429 on: November 09, 2007, 12:58:32 PM »
akh... so you admit that I am right in that one fire puts out more co2 than all the cars and LIGHT trucks in America?  put out the damn fire if co2 is such a big deal to you.

now.. lets see if we can get you to be a teensy bit honest...  hard for a lefty I know but... give it a shot...


What was all your talk of water vapor and mans contribution to it and how it was a powerful greenhouse gas and all if you really don't think we are having any significant effect on water vapor?  

Do you admit that we are having no significant effect on water vapor?

lazs

Offline lazs2

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #430 on: November 09, 2007, 01:06:00 PM »
crock-it... try to stay on topic.

please define "clean air and water" and how you would go about that.   If your sole idea for a cure is that those who want to can quit their job and get one a little closer... well.... I have no problem with that.

If you want to put out the coal fires as a top priority... I have no problem with that.

los angeles does not concern me.. it is an area of no air circulation and will have smog no matter what...  I was born there and moved away.. it is a lefty craphole in any case.   I don't care to take care of people who live in such areas any more than I care to pay for N.O. idiots who live below the ocean level and whine when it floods.

Soooo... it boils down to.. we can't prove that man is creating a warming..  we can't really do much anyway..  and any "cure" may or may not be a good thing.

Again... as I must tell you lefties over and over... the end does not justify the means... that is just a lefty way of saying it is ok to lie and enslave.

You don't have an end.. that can not be predicted and it can not be justified as it does not exist except in the imagination...  the "means" is all we have.  If the means is unjust then the whole idea is unjust.

lazs

Offline lazs2

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #431 on: November 09, 2007, 01:13:29 PM »
and crock-it..  what do you mean by "what if I am wrong"????

The math doesn't add up so I doubt that I am wrong on the c02 thing... even if I am...  the worst case scenario shows only a degree (nothing else having changed) in a century.. hardly worth getting upset about.   the sea MAY rise an inch every ten years but even that will level off...  the suns activity is in a cooling period..

But... I am willing to do something...  I am willing to pay to put out the coal fires.  or research how it can be done... I am willing to tell you to not eat meat.

both of those things do more than the kryoto treaty.   if you don't do em then your agenda is clear...you don't believe co2 bs either.

I am willing to let the free market develop solar panels that will get cheaper every year and when they make sense... I will use em... hell.. I will even build a plug in hot rod for my stable of hot rods.

What more can you expect of me?

lazs

Offline Angus

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #432 on: November 09, 2007, 03:08:41 PM »
Lazs, I challenge you to tell me how much of atmospheric air is needed for that...errr, that:
"akh... so you admit that I am right in that one fire puts out more co2 than all the cars and LIGHT trucks in America? put out the damn fire if co2 is such a big deal to you.
"

Okay, find me an underground coalfire in China, prove it in size to fit your statement, and tell me how much of the atmosphere is needed for the exhaust.

After all, I am tired of explaining (maybe you get this?) WHY a tiny amount of oxygen is needed to create huge amounts of CO2 :rofl
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline crockett

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #433 on: November 09, 2007, 04:01:30 PM »
Sorry I can't argue with you anymore Larz.. It's about as pointless as trying to find a 1 on 1 fight in the MA's these days.
"strafing"

Offline Terror

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Re: General Climate Discussion
« Reply #434 on: November 09, 2007, 04:33:59 PM »
According to this Coal Fire website.  The highest estimate is 2% to 3% of global Fossil Fuel Co2 emissions are from the China coal fires.


Some coal fires have burned for over 6000 years.... See Burning Mountain

T