General Climate Discussion

[lazs2]

moray... this is telling.. you think there are no coal fires?  

angus... it is not complex..  let's say that you are king... lets say that you still think that man made co2 is causing global warming and let's say that you want that crap to end damnit!!!!!

What are the ten things you will do.   You can't say "reduce man made co2 by...."

You have to name the way you would do it.

I think that the reason this has degenerated into a name calling contest is because...   the blush is off the whole MMGW rose..  more and more scientists are deserting the co2 scam...  and...

Now.. it is making fun of a religion... People get pissy when you make fun of their religion or throw facts at it.

lazs

[MORAY37]

Originally posted by lazs2
moray... this is telling.. you think there are no coal fires?  

angus... it is not complex..  let's say that you are king... lets say that you still think that man made co2 is causing global warming and let's say that you want that crap to end damnit!!!!!

What are the ten things you will do.   You can't say "reduce man made co2 by...."

You have to name the way you would do it.

I think that the reason this has degenerated into a name calling contest is because...   the blush is off the whole MMGW rose..  more and more scientists are deserting the co2 scam...  and...

Now.. it is making fun of a religion... People get pissy when you make fun of their religion or throw facts at it.

lazs

Religion?  
Lazs, you truly are the number one conspiracy theorist in the country.  Keep working on the number one sweetheart, and someday you'll outdo our president for the honor.

Sir, your "facts" aren't measuring up and the more you stand there screaming denial, the dumber you truly look.  AKH has repeatedly taken his valuable time to enlighten you, and direct you to more "scientifically relevant" information, not like your sites that throw up a vomit of information that seems like "science" to the general idiot out there, or you, in this case.  I, have given up that crusade, due to the fact you act like a pathetic petulent child when someone uses actual facts, that are substantiated by real, competent research....not OP-ed or Fox News "just cuz we way its so" stories.

The fact you seriously think that a group of scientists, ANY group of scientists, can make a concerted effort, and make people fear imminent disaster, to make themselves financially better.... IS fediddleING DISGUSTING.  

You are entitled to your opinion.... I'm just as entitled to laugh at you.

[Angus]

Lazs:
"angus... it is not complex.. let's say that you are king... lets say that you still think that man made co2 is causing global warming and let's say that you want that crap to end damnit!!!!!"

King of the earth, yeahh!

Well, I could put it in one line basically, a tad Churchillian

Since we have a problem, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength untill victory is achived.

Simple Lazs, face a problem, analyze it, and counter it, do not stick the head in the sand.

No matter what you think of CO2, we have another global problem, which has been overshadowed a bit with a CO2-Al Gore etc etc debate.
Our problem is however closely linked.
It is our total impact on the planet if I can word it so. Even if the MMGW was a scam, we still cannot go on like we do. We are depleting resources and screwing up the planet.

The answer is that we must mend our ways, and energy is the first milestone. I would have to ponder on some lines for you, if I was the king of the world. First question would be, if I am a monarch, elected prez, Communist leader or a DICTATOR

[lazs2]

Ok... I can understand that... you guys don't have a "solution" or if you do... you don't want to say.   "mend our ways" is not a solution...  "fight the pollution" is not an answer.

everything is pollution... you want to fight everything?   "mend our ways"  what ways are those?  

please.. one of you.. be specific.

and moray...  if it were just me that wasn't "getting it" then you would have a point but at least 17,000 scientists and people with advanced degrees do not believe in man  made global warming.

Do you?    if so... what are we doing to cause it and... what is your solution?

Should be simple for someone who is so sure of himself right?

Hope you do better than your guys did in the debate with crichton and a few others.

http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=16260

http://pajamasmedia.com/2007/03/crichton_debates_global_warmin.php

seems more people believe the "deniers" when given the chance to hear debate.

just like.. you are not helping your case here.   You keep wanting to make it a debate between my credentials and yours... neither one of us is qualified even tho you have more education... what we need to do is simply post the links (as I have done repeatedly) and let people decide.



lazs

[AKIron]

Some of 'em could start by stop smokin' pot. Wonder how much c02 is contributed by the world's pot heads?


Next time you light up a joint, count yourself among the SUV fleet owners like Al Bore.

[AKH]

Originally posted by lazs2
Ok... I can understand that... you guys don't have a "solution" or if you do... you don't want to say.   "mend our ways" is not a solution...  "fight the pollution" is not an answer.

I don't suppose that you have read the Stern Review?
Stern Review on the economics of climate change

please.. one of you.. be specific.

Less construction of subcritical and supercritical coal-fired power plants instead of Integrated Gasification Combined Cycle plants would be a good start.

[Angus]

A change of habit would be a good start. The sad part is that people won't do that without some spanking. It will always boil down to the economics and the international trade. So it will get to decisions taken by clusters of nations, and those will decrease life standards...maybe.
Well, I'm the King, so....
The first step is realizing instead of putting the head in the sand. Step 2 as a king is putting Lazs in the dungeon. (sorry, couldn't help getting a little medieaval here ). Step 3 is getting the grip on the usage of fossil fuel (that means a lot of sub-steps). Step 4, hmm, big step, stop deforestation. Step 5, Try to utilize the land in my grip without exploitation.
Step 5b Ponder on Step 6 to step 10.

[lazs2]

ah... so at least you admit that there must be some pain to stop us from changing the climate of the entire planet...   some regulation and more government.

akh.. can't open that site.

Soooo...  we have one suggestion...  AKH says that we need to have a "little more expensive" power from our coal plants..  

Still... that is for what?  co2 reduction?... still laughable compared to putting out the coal fires around the world.

Next.

lazs

[Angus]

Pain? Well, maybe. Because, businesswise, there is a heck of a job to keep things running without spoiling what we have. On god's green earth. Unfortunately, those who are now floating on in a comfortable, albeit short term profit, don't agree with that.

Pain? It's gonna be pain when you go from free-fall and hit the ground. Opening the chute will give you some pain, but you won't hit the bottom as hard, or lethally, instead.

So, Lazs, tell me, can you put up 10 things that are going to happen if mankind carries on with it's exploitation of earth as it is heading. Like, when we run out of fossil fuel, when we run out of food, who runs out of food, will there be forests, what will the oil price be in 35 years, what are the SL numbers in 100 years, the weather, what the CO2 PPM are going to hit eventually, so forth, et cetera...?

[lazs2]

I say nothing will happen... oil will get more expensive.. solar and wind and nuclear and coal will be developed to take it's place as it becomes more scarce.

the climate will do what it will do regardless of what we do.    We will enter a cooling trend just as night follows day.   we won't be able to do a thing about that either.

Already solar electric for homes is nearing the break point..   you can spend 200 or 300 a month to pay for the loan on a system and save 200-500 a month in power bills..  plug in hybrids will take some pain away too.. the power companies are giving incentives and rebates on home systems because it is good for them... they get power in the peak hours instead of trying to get it to us through the horrible grid.

more oil will be found and coal will get used.

Those are some of the things....specific things.. I see happening if we "do nothing"..   do nothing about something we can't do anything about in any case that is...  the climate of the globe.

baring any huge discovery... oil will get more expensive.. alternatives will get more attractive.. the free market will provide.

stop wringing your hands and weeping over nothing.

lazs

[wrag]

Heres an opinion on the topic.................

http://mensnewsdaily.com/2007/11/13/sanfran-chronicle-only-the-informed-believe-in-global-warming/

SEEMS the media is on Al Gore's side?

Or at least some of the media.

Some would say............

"The great mass of people . . . will more easily fall victim to a big lie than to a  small one." Adolf Hitler (1889-1945) German dictator


Could it be said something like this is happening..............


“the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country." Hermann Goering in his cell on the evening of 18 April 1946


should we be worried more about our rights, freedom, and liberty.................

"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." - H.L.Mencken

IMHO there is TOO MUCH proof that the GLOBAL WARMING issue is a smoke screen.

[john9001]

Originally posted by wrag

“the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country." Hermann Goering in his cell on the evening of 18 April 1946
 

but what if the country is being attacked?

[wrag]

Originally posted by john9001
but what if the country is being attacked?

was the attack provoked????  OR was a phony claim about an attack that actually NEVER happened but made up as an excuse for war...........

the IDEA behind the quote........

1st make a claim, then attack those that refute the claim, paint them as un-green, anti-environment, naughty naughty bad bads, whatever...

been watching this kinda stuff for YEARS............ some claim gets made and some people start screamin the sky is falling........ alar and apples,

eggs are good for you then eggs are bad for you,

good cholesterol vs bad cholesterol (a strain of chlamydiae, it has been shown, can be the actual cause of blocked arteries),

this causes cancer and that causes cancer, etc.. etc.. etc..

I remember in the early 70's the claim was global cooling, and the blame was pretty much placed on the same gases....... we were heading for an ICE AGE!!

in the case of global warming...................

Sorry I can't support it, I don't believe it, think it's being used to control the market and the people, and an excuse for more power to the government.

After all what is Al Gore?  He's a politician ain't he?

[Angus]

Wag the dog

Lazs, I wish I could float on in the autopilot mode like you. Anyway, the way you put your side/theory, my job as a king of the globe would be simple. Tax fossil fuels. Use the tax money (earmarked) for land retrival, growing projects and alternative energies. Just that.

But my worries (which you refer to as wringing) seem to be becoming true. And if my theory holds better than yours (which I certainly do not hope), mankind is going on as stupid as possible, with some half-minded remedies (CO2 balancing as one) untill the discomfort of what has been done is going to smack us right in the face. Us meaning more than U.S. It's the globe, and we CAN change the atmosphere. If we go to like 800 ppm CO2, we're going to have some rock&roll I guess. In the meantime we are depleting many of earth's resources for a cheap product party. Forests mostly.
So. - we're going to get smacked. I hope we won't get swatted. Rome will burn, so to say, or like Nero: "Who fediddleing cares, just  give the people bread and games"

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by Angus
"Ever" is not the issue. But in millions of years is. And I pointed out the facts, as close as researchers can get to them. And I live nearby. Have you been to Greenland? Have you sailed along the Ice, w of the Denmark strait? (Near to where HMS Hood was sunk)? Because I have....

Been away a few days... back to it.

I think I've been within 6 miles of Greenland.  (Seattle to Gatwick)

That does not make any difference to the inconsistancy in your argument that it's the worst it's been for 20 million years, when you also post a wiki quote that says,  "The Arctic Sea has not been ice free for a period of at least one million years, and probably much longer"

It is not ice free now, and if you take your wiki quote as gospel, has been ice covered to some extent for at least 1 million years.

The "Probabably a lot longer" does not equate to a 19 million year time stretch in the data.

I am not disputing your view, I am disputing the extent of reasonable extrapolation of data.