A question of respect...

[dedalos]

Originally posted by raptor33
LEAVE IF YOU DONT LIKE OUR STYLE OF GAMEPLAY.  

[The Fugitive]

Originally posted by raptor33
...........Of course, this is not at all directed to you Storch. You have more than proven to me that you are an individual of integrity and maturity. You advise.....you do not try to look like the king by insulting the newbies. Much appreciated.

Raptor 33

Storch's comment following this post of your was to warn you of the post coming next...mostly post pointing how how much an idiot Storch is, how much a name calling child he is, and how he has the morals of a $10 hooker, all based on how he is "perceived" on these boards. None of his comments were anything "bad" toward you or your squad.

Humbles "suggestions" too I believe were meant to be helpful, and not derogatory at all. I the story he described maybe he meant something like this, to earn "respect", your group of 9 vs 3 had over whelming numbers. Instead of all of your guys engaging the enemy fighters have a few circle about the fight and watch. you can learn about how thew enemy is fighting like this, and it also give the enemy a "fighting chance" in the fight By giving the enemy a chance, you earn respect in the arena, you still "fight your way", and everyone wins.

Humble is just trying to get your guys to think. If you ALL jump on the few numbers, one, its the "gang fest" thats in the main arenas, and those in the AvA arena mainly come to the AvA to get away from that stuff. If you hold back a few guys its more enjoyable for all, and two if you don't "dweeb up the arena" using  the gang fest, the "enemy" guys won't get discouraged and bug out giving your crew an enemy to fight.

Sounds like a plan to me. I can't believe you guys would rather just milkrun  and have no opposition. Missions are great, but the trill comes from having to fight your way to complete your objectives.

[raptor33]

One thing for sure fugitive...there are 2 sides to every story. DO not put credence in what certain individuals belive they saw The AVengers do last night. We had a plan and we did our best to follow it. We were not ganging on anyone intentionally....we WERE hitting fields....wed do not vulch for the sake of a kill....
But.....sometimes it is easy to assume intentions were different. Problem is there are a few outspoken individuals that like to sate as fact things that are assumptions.
Last night I flew one sortie. I was an escort with a wingman. Lutrell. He in a 51-d me in the same (no p-38 by the way...so right off the bat someone was wrong). We had alt for a reason. We were escorts. We did not engage right away as it was not worth giving up the alt. We waited for them to approach us...for no other reason other than the fact that we had a responsibility to stay with our buffs until they were in actual danger. When buffs unloaded ord, we then jumped in to have fun. Gang banging? LOL.....sure someone sees it that way when there are 3 cons around him and he dies. But what he doesnt see is that there were also 3 friendly's around him at the same time....but that is not news worthy, so why mention it.
Look....I am spent over this whole discussion. By the way...as for the numbers thing...We, the avengers fly together...ALWAYS. Why? becuase we are a mission oriented squad....that simple.

[humble]

Originally posted by raptor33
Hmmm....Maybe you missed my point. Children usually have one track minds, so I guess that ius why you can not see the forest through the trees. I dont give a rats butt about your respect Humble.
When we are offered sound advice we give it a shot....as we did last night. But, alas, this did not please you Humble. Maybe if it were your advice you would have appreciated the attempt on our part to follow it. That, my son, is why you seem to be a child. Stop holding your breath.....we will not give in to you. Off to bed with no dinner Humble.
Hah....We lost respect of others as well? So they logged off? Wow.....take your ball and go home. Childish as well.
Glad to see Avengers have such an impact on your lives.
Oh yeah......as for trash talking.....lol....re-read your posts....some may view that as trash talking.....but you are right...it is not trash talking....it is an inept attempt to criticze in a falsely mature way......which certainly comes across as trash talking.
Go spend some time in the mains Humble. I fear you will be surprised. Saturday morning I was aksed if I wer new and I said yes, but been flying in the AvA.....gotta love the responses on 200. You may have scores Humble.....but many refer to you as an......well, you get the point....actually, you probably never will get the point. I said stop holding your breath little boy......we will not give in.

I had no problem at all with your bomber mission per se...{which I think actually WAS my advice for the prior week}...

Your actions before I logged in are the core of the "issue". When you have 8 or 9 guys vs a single con (TC) there is no need to pork the DAR and run a "mission" to where he is. When I logged in I made the #'s 10-3 so I switched...and you were inbound to A37 in a high alt buff mission...as per my suggestion for last week...where given the balance it was an appropriate mission.

With a 9/3 advantage in numbers it was unneeded and a bit of overkill on top of your actions prior. I spiral climbed up to you and popped a pony but responded to TC's suggestion we go fly a few.

I fly more in the MA's then in the AvA and am never very "score" oriented in either arena. In fact I fly the A-20 as a "fighter" in the MA more then any other ride.

All I did was bring the subject to your attention and open up a dialogue with regard to it....

For the first few weeks you guys were the new kid in town. Now that your better known this is the 1st time a group decided to ignore you due to the combination of poor game play and lack of overall skill. Nobody logged, we simply ran our own little furball from 11 to 22...right where you were the week before. You keep commenting on score, yet I'd rather go fight good sticks one on one and more likely then not lose vs continue clubbing baby seals pointlessly.

Hopefully over time you guys will continue to mature and grow....

[humble]

Originally posted by raptor33
One thing for sure fugitive...there are 2 sides to every story. DO not put credence in what certain individuals belive they saw The AVengers do last night. We had a plan and we did our best to follow it. We were not ganging on anyone intentionally....we WERE hitting fields....wed do not vulch for the sake of a kill....
But.....sometimes it is easy to assume intentions were different. Problem is there are a few outspoken individuals that like to sate as fact things that are assumptions.
Last night I flew one sortie. I was an escort with a wingman. Lutrell. He in a 51-d me in the same (no p-38 by the way...so right off the bat someone was wrong). We had alt for a reason. We were escorts. We did not engage right away as it was not worth giving up the alt. We waited for them to approach us...for no other reason other than the fact that we had a responsibility to stay with our buffs until they were in actual danger. When buffs unloaded ord, we then jumped in to have fun. Gang banging? LOL.....sure someone sees it that way when there are 3 cons around him and he dies. But what he doesnt see is that there were also 3 friendly's around him at the same time....but that is not news worthy, so why mention it.
Look....I am spent over this whole discussion. By the way...as for the numbers thing...We, the avengers fly together...ALWAYS. Why? becuase we are a mission oriented squad....that simple.

Was not referring to last night on that comment...[was your "fighter sweep" night I believe].

As for "gang banging" I've never been killed by an avenger in a fighter (I did run into one of Frankc's buffs) regardless of numbers so far. So none of this is about sour grapes...hell I wish you guys were better in fighters and I actually offered to spend some time bringing you up to speed....but like TC commented you seem to know it all already.

[Tiger]

All I see in here is a bunch of blah blah blah, you suck, no you suck, Childish banter.  

You pay $15 just like I do.  I you play how you want, I'll play how I want.  I don't tell you how to play, you don't tell me how to.

No go back on the server's and play nice or I'll send you all to your rooms.

[raptor33]

We hit dar as that was part of the planned mission. One on or 50 on....we hit dar as that was part of the mission. When it was 9 v 1 we did not need to worry about where to hit and where not to hit. We hit where we did as at the time there was nothing happening there. If there was a furball there, we would have gone somewhere else on the map. Our flights are long. My sortie last night used nearly 100% fuel of a stang D. If I checked thew roster and saw the numbers skewed, should I have augered so I can even out the sides?
Humble..in a furball situation, evening out the sides makes sense. When we are running a mission, breaking ourselves up will not allow us to do the two things we need to do (as per your advice)...learn how to fly as a squad, and learn how to capture a field.
So please...I ask you....what is it that you want from us to make you happy? Continue as lone sticks or learn to fly in the arena as a squad? It is a no win for us.
I agree....if what some PERCEIVE are our actions is true, then I understand why you guys rant as you do. But we know the truth...we are not there to gang bang, or vulch, or jeopardize the integiruty of the sim.... WHoever said it was wrtong....he said what he THINKS we did....not what we actually werte trying to do....albeit, unsuccessfully. ANd as for a couple of weeks. If lucky, most of us get to fly 2 or 3 sorties a night....twice a week. Is this sim so easy that we should be able to get noticebaly better in a couple of weeks? Are you veterans so untalented that in a couple of weeks we should have a major impact on the degree of difficulty of the opposition? I think I give you and the other memebers more credit of your skill level than you do. I mean....look at how long you have been a memeber of the forum....look at tthe thgousands of posts...the years of membership. I believe half the problem is you expect the learning curve to be a lot steeper slope than it is. I disagree...it will take many sorties before anyone on this BB can say that i have improved....not 27 sorties...or whatever it is that I have. I am being reasonably patient.....unfortunately, you guys aren't.
BTW....thanks for the normal response without the little digs. Such is why I responded the same way Humble.
Raptor33

[humble]

Trust me I'm not trying to dig at you guys, I wholeheartedly hope you grow and improve as individuals and a squad. Remember I walked into this set of events {last night} in the middle. Over time you may become a very positive influence in the AvA.

I'll make a couple more observations and then let this go...

1) why not fly one squad night in the AvA and the other during FSO. This is a 250-300 player 90 min preplanned "mission" normally divided into 3 "frames" per set up. It is a "one life" {per frame} event and each squad is tasked orders as part of a broader plan by the commander for that side.

2) you can fly missions in the AvA that are consistant with the numbers on hand. Last week you guys were fighting good opposition both from a numbers and skill viewpoint. In effect you were almost the gangee...not the ganger. Given the current fighter skill issues (for whatever reason) you couldnt clear A4 enough for a mission to roll....hence my suggestions. Here you had the numbers...I never once said for you guys to break up. what I was suggestiing is flying a set of lower level jabo attacks vs high alt buff missions...again with 9...

3 x mossie, 3 x jug, 3 x 38...

38's roll 1st and climb to 8k, mossies roll opposite and run a 180 climbing to 5k or so and jugs follow the mossies. Obviously opposition dictates what happens but 38's arrive 1st and drop ords on town...mossies and jugs follow....jugs are tasked with clearing the mossies inbound with mossies going to a thatch weave defense...if cons pick on jugs mossies keep going...

All 3 plane types can strafe the town down and kill VH/deack well...whole mission would take less then your climb out last night.

3) A lot of people have offered to help you guys with the ACM/FM curve here. Why not take advantage of it? Precisely because you guys arent getting alot of chance to fly. None of us is rooting against you, in fact I think we all want to see you do well. I think as a group your underestimating just how quickly you could improve. But unless you guys give it a try neither of us will ever know....

[KONG1]

My, my, I can feel the love. I know, you guys told me so. What do I know? Who could of seen this coming? Give me a break.

I don't think these guys are griefers. From what I've read I believe they expect to become proficient at lame game play and earn respect for such. When their expectations don't hold true I suspect they'll seek validation elsewhere.

Dweebs of a feather flock together.

Flock you all,

KONG


PS. Rapedher33, I believe the Avengirls misunderstand me. I only post to educate not denigrate. I'm here to help. I'd be happy to give some lessons, just ask. I'm a lousy player, most of the regulars chew me up easily, but I think I can raise your game to my pathetic level.

[dedalos]

Originally posted by raptor33
One thing for sure fugitive...there are 2 sides to every story. DO not put credence in what certain individuals belive they saw The AVengers do last night.  

I was not there but do you really think I would take anyones word over TC's or Humble's?  You would have to have my respect before I even consider what you said.  You guys already said you don't care about having anyones respect so . . .

[raptor33]

I do not speak for the Avengers. Those were my words Dedalos. What he thinks is not him lying...it is what he thinks happened. But I know what happened becuases they are my actions. I dont thinkyou know me well enogh to call me a liar..AGain....his is preception...mine is actual. Oh yeah...and he is entitled to perception....but we all percieve things differently than they were intended.
Died by an HO....I didnt fire....I saw the HO coming and I did what I could to avoid it.....so he fired on me and I was dead. I typed in HO? and he responded with..."it takes 2 to HO"....no...it takes only one to HO...
You see...he truly percieved me as intending to HO him so he did it...and he swears on it....but I didnt. Got shot down last thiursday as I was on my final with half a wing. Not really sure who hit my half plane, but it was the guy who shot off my wiong that got the kill...I am sure. Looked like I was kil;led when unable to defend myself...could have kicked and screamed...but maybe the shooter had an angle where the half wing was blocked by my fuselage? Possible...so no whining about it here.
Guys.....avengers dont gang bangbang and they dont vulch for the sake of vulching. We dont shoot down planes on a final approach unless we dont realize it is a final...and that too can happen...I have seen landings where plane was 50 feet off RW as he passed over RW....is he landing or upping? WHo knows. watermelon happens....but one thing I have learned over the years......what you percieve to be true is not always the truth.....and when I screw up I admit it......I do not lie to get out of it.

[Stang]

Oh Lord, sounds like I'll have to swing by and do some squeaker bashing.  I might even wing up with my man Storchita... the horror.

[toonces3]

I had alot more to type, but I feel I'm wasting my time and yours.

[dedalos]

Originally posted by Stang
Oh Lord, sounds like I'll have to swing by and do some squeaker bashing.  I might even wing up with my man Storchita... the horror.

Stang: You are rude to the core on this and so many other threads. If the forum had a squelch option so I never had to view your awful flaming text, I would use it immediately. If I were a moderator, you would have been banned from this forum long ago. Always insults and awful words from you.

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by TequilaChaser
about this time, when I had seen and had enough and been beat down again, one of the Avengers gave a   I gave a right back.  

Wow.

I mean, wow.  We've seen plenty of meltdowns in the past, but I never really thought I'd ever see anyone make TC's head explode.  Figures it would happen on a night I wasn't there.

May I throw a few thoughts out there into the blood and teeth I see on the floor?

Thought One:  With the possible exception of the DA, I think that the AvA has the most long-lived list of unwritten tradition.  Can't really expect that those without any exposure to that tradition would promptly conform to standards that, in the minds even of many veteran AH players, might be considered unusual.  

Thought Two:  There was a time when AvA play was identical to MA play; only the plane sets (and the absence of a third side) were different.  When the numbers died - and there have been many discussions as to why the numbers died - those who remainded adopted behavior expectations that were intended to enhance the fun of the aerial combat.  This meant trying to balance sides when numbers were off, not strafing people who were trying to take off and climb into a fight, things like that, so that one side wouldn't simply be overwhelmed and then leave in disgust - thereby even FURTHER reducing the numbers.  Pretty basic sportsmanship stuff, really.  In the MA war game arenas, "sportsmanship" might be a debatable value, but in an arena that often measures its player numbers in single digits, it's a value that has real meaning.

Thought Three:  The AvA may, as Dedalos and Kong and some others fear, return to the no-holds-barred MA standards of yesteryear.  For that sort of AvA to work, though, it has to have enough people on both sides to keep the fights fun.  Until it does, if ever it does, I suggest that squad operations ought to be conducted with a certain sense of balance.  I appreciate that squad members want to fly together, but I don't think it has ever killed any squad to split off a few people if side imbalancing becomes obvious.  The Mongrels, the 880 people, the 78th, and certainly the JG54 folks all do this, and they continue to exist, and there is rumor that their members continue to enjoy the game.

- oldman (my brain hurts)