Author Topic: P-47 and P-38  (Read 3416 times)

Offline gripen

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P-47 and P-38
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2007, 06:57:04 AM »
Thunderball sounds better to me ;)

Offline Rich46yo

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P-47 and P-38
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2007, 11:33:50 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
Some Germans thought the P-38 was an easy fight.

The P-47 broke the back of the Luftwaffe, the P-51 took the credit.


                           The poor schmucks on the ground didnt think it was "easy" when it was screaming down on them spitting lead, bombs, and 5" rockets. Also the P-38 was very usefull as a photo-reco airplane.

                         In the end nothing the Germans did mattered. As good an outfit as they were the Luftwaffe was simply swamped by an almost never ending supply of Allied machines and trained pilots. Its actually pretty amazing the Germans held out as long as they did.
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Offline Furball

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P-47 and P-38
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2007, 12:33:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Karnak
I vaguely recall that the Meteor was supposed to be named Thunderbolt, but when that name was given to the P-47 it was redesignated Meteor.  I could be confusing Thunderbolt with Tempest though.


Thats right

Edit, just found this: "The name *Thunderbolt* for the P-47B was originally thought up by C. Hart Miller, Republic's Director of Military Contracts. The company approved his choice, and the name stuck."
« Last Edit: November 29, 2007, 12:38:47 PM by Furball »
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Offline AquaShrimp

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P-47 and P-38
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2007, 04:18:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rich46yo
The poor schmucks on the ground didnt think it was "easy" when it was screaming down on them spitting lead, bombs, and 5" rockets. Also the P-38 was very usefull as a photo-reco airplane.

                         In the end nothing the Germans did mattered. As good an outfit as they were the Luftwaffe was simply swamped by an almost never ending supply of Allied machines and trained pilots. Its actually pretty amazing the Germans held out as long as they did.


Well it kind of mattered what they did, seeing as how thousands of our pilots might still be alive today if they hadn't fallen in combat with the Luftwaffe.

Offline LEADPIG

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P-47 and P-38
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2007, 05:01:54 PM »
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Well it kind of mattered what they did, seeing as how thousands of our pilots might still be alive today if they hadn't fallen in combat with the Luftwaffe.


Aqua all he's saying is the Germans were going to get their butt kicked from the start, so their resistance was futile. Don't be getting all sensitive, we know they died, but he ain't even talking about that.

Offline Tac

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« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2007, 11:48:19 PM »
Thunder is loud, thunder is impressive...

but it's Lightning that does all the work.

Offline MajIssue

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« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2007, 02:40:14 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Rich46yo
The poor schmucks on the ground didnt think it was "easy" when it was screaming down on them spitting lead, bombs, and 5" rockets. Also the P-38 was very usefull as a photo-reco airplane.

                         In the end nothing the Germans did mattered. As good an outfit as they were the Luftwaffe was simply swamped by an almost never ending supply of Allied machines and trained pilots. Its actually pretty amazing the Germans held out as long as they did.


My Landlord in Germany was a FlaK gunner as a 15 year old HJ at the Panzer Factory in Kassel near the end of the war... He called the P38 a twin tailed devil, and said that low level attacks by p-38s were the most fearful moments of the war for him. So I agree that as a GA aircraft the P-38 is well suited. Based on my MA sorties, I don't like to get into a A2A fight in a P-38 unless I have a big E advantage. In a turning fight the p-38 is soon toast.
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Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2007, 06:02:01 PM »
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Originally posted by MajIssue
In a turning fight the p-38 is soon toast.



It depends on the pilot's skill level in the P-38.


ack-ack
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Offline AquaShrimp

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« Reply #23 on: November 30, 2007, 06:11:50 PM »
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Adolf Galland:
P-38s were not difficult to handle in combat. Many, many P-38 pilots are angry with me about this statement, but it's true.

Offline TequilaChaser

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« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2007, 06:31:28 PM »
what might not be difficult for one person, can be a complete nightmare for the next! and its true
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline Murdr

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P-47 and P-38
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2007, 06:41:02 PM »
Quote
Franz Stiegler 28 victory ace

"[P-38s] could turn inside us with ease and they could go from level flight to climb almost instantaneously.  We lost quite a few pilots who tried to make an attack and then pull up.  The P-38s were on them at once.  They closed so quickly that there was little one could do except roll quickly and dive down, for while the P-38 could turn inside us, it rolled very slowly through the first 5 or 10 degrees of bank, and by then we would already be gone.  One cardinal rule we never forgot was: avoid fighting a P-38 head on.  That was suicide.  Their armament was so heavy and their firepower so murderous, that no one ever tried that type of attack more than once."

Quote
Johannes Steinhoff Kommodore JG 77

"I had encountered the long range P-38 Lightning fighter during the last few days of the North African campaign.  Our opinion of this twin-boomed, twin-engined aircraft was divided.  Our old Messerschmitts were still, perhaps, a little faster.  But pilots who had fought them said that the Lightnings were capable of appreciably tighter turns and that they would be on your tail before you knew what was happening.  The machine guns mounted in the nose supposedly produced a concentration of fire from which there was no escape.  Certainly the effect was reminiscent of a watering can when one of these dangerous apparitions started firing tracer, and was essential to prevent them maneuvring into a position from which they could bring their guns to bear.

Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #26 on: November 30, 2007, 07:09:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Adolf Galland:
P-38s were not difficult to handle in combat. Many, many P-38 pilots are angry with me about this statement, but it's true.  


An excerpt from Top Guns, by Joe Foss and Matthew Brennan... The story is called "Big John"

Quote

"One of our last P-38 missions was a flight to protect bombers on a mission near Berlin.. We were flying Top Cover..... We were bounced by 16 long nose Fw-190's... A flight of 4 overflew us and slowed down... I looked up at a German plane... The pilot was looking down at me as he eased ahead and close above me into sure death, unless he could take violent evasive action.... He split S'ed and I followed him.. He nearly got out of sight because if the P-38's high-speed compressability problem... Finally he turned into me and I cut across to close with him...

"Then the fight started...."

He was a fantastic, wild, talented pilot who pulled all the tricks i had ever seen... But finally I got into a tight Lufberry with him and used my clover-leaf surprise to get a few strikes... None of them harmed his power unit....

When his methyl injection was gone, he dived to the deck and dropped into a tar pit that was 500 feet deep and big enough to turn a fighter in... I got a few more strikes on him... A portion of his vertical stabilizer and one wingtip flew off..... As I was getting low on fuel, I headed back to England... I looked back over my shoulder to see the Fw-190D going in the opposite direction, wagging his wings...."

A few years ago, the American Fighter Aces had thier annual reunion at Maxwell AFB in Alabama....

"Ace Gabreski saw me and called me over to his little group... He introduced me as the highest scoring P-38 Ace in Europe... Whn I shook hands with German General Adolf Galland, I said "Adolf, did u ever shoot down a P-38?"

He replied, "Yah I shoot down 8."

I proceeded to tell the group about this dogfight over the tar pit.. I was using my hands and looking down as I described this engagement... When I looked up, he was pale white...

He said, "You son of a *****! You dom neer keel me dat day!"

Holy Mackeral!!! All the pilots that heard our conversation bellowed their surprise, including myself... Adolf wouldnt let me out of his sight..."


It also has the story of the mock duel Lowell had with a RAF pilot.

Quote

The Group, 364th FG, had just recieved P-38L's just before the P-51's arrived...
"On a day that we were "stood down", General Eisenhower arranged for one of the top English aces Wing Commander Donaldson, to come to Honnington and show slides of English Spitfires....

S/Ldr. Edward Mortlock (Teddy) Donaldson, a Cranwell graduate took over Command of No 151 Squadron flying Hurricane's in November 1939. He shot down 5½ enemy aero planes up until August 1940. He survived the war ending up as an air Commodore with C.B, C.B.E.,D.S.O. and A.F.C.

After the briefing, Donaldson said,
"If one of u bloody bastards has enough guts, Ill fly mock combat above ur field and show u how easily this Spit XIV can whip your best pilots ass..."

The entire group started clapping and hollered, "Big John, Big John!"
That was me, so I asked him, "What is your fuel load?"
He replied, "Half Petrol."
"What is your comabt load?"
He replied, "No ammo."

We agreed to cross over the field at 5,000 feet, then anything goes... I took off in a new P-38L.... I climbed very high, so when I dove down to cross the field, my speed would be close to 600 mph...... When Donaldson and I crossed, I zoomed straight up while watching him try and get on my tail... When he did a wing-over from loss of speed, I was several thousand feet above him, so I quickly got on his tail... Naturally, he turned into a full-power right lLufberry as I closed in... I frustrated that with my clover-leaf, and if we'd had "hot guns," he would have been shot down.

He came over the field with me on his tail and cut throttle, dropped flaps, and split-S'ed from about 1,000 feet... I followed him with the new flaps, banking only 45 degrees, below the tree tops... All I had to do was move over behind his Spit again.. He was apparently surprised...."



ack-ack
« Last Edit: November 30, 2007, 07:16:27 PM by Ack-Ack »
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
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Offline Guppy35

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« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2007, 07:10:12 PM »
Gotta pull out old reliable again.  P38J-10, 370th FG, pre dive flaps and power assisted controls.

Gets bounced by 109s, gets in a 1 v 1, still lugging his 500 pounders, out turns the 109 and shoots him down.  A relatively low time 38 pilot too having only 2 months of time in it as the 370th transitioned from Jugs when they got to England in May 44.  This is July 44.

Lt. Royal Madden,  July 31, 1944

“Approximately 15 Me 109s came down on Blue Flight and we broke left.  I then made a vertical right turn and observed Blue Two below and close and Blue Four was ahead and slightly above me.  I glanced behind me and saw four Me 109s closing on my tail fast and within range so I broke left and down in a Split S.  I used flaps to get out and pulled up and to the left.  I then noticed a single Me 109 on my tail and hit the deck in a sharp spiral.

We seemed to be the only two planes around so we proceeded to mix it up in a good old-fashioned dogfight at about 1000 feet.  This boy was good and he had me plenty worried as he sat on my tail for about five minutes, but I managed to keep him from getting any deflection.  I was using maneuvering flaps often and finally got inside of him.  I gave him a short burst at 60 degrees, but saw I was slightly short so I took about 2 radii lead at about 150 yards and gave him a good long burst.  There were strikes on the cockpit and all over the ship and the canopy came off.  He rolled over on his back and seemed out of control so I closed in and was about to give him a burst at 0 deflection when he bailed out at 800 feet.

Having lost the squadron I hit the deck for home.  Upon landing I learned that my two 500 pound bombs had not released when I had tried to jettison them upon being jumped.  As a result I carried them throughout the fight.”
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Offline FBplmmr

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P-47 and P-38
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2007, 07:39:18 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
An excerpt from Top Guns, by Joe Foss and Matthew Brennan... The story is called "Big John"



It also has the story of the mock duel Lowell had with a RAF pilot.




ack-ack


Please explain "clover-leaf" I have never heard that before?

Great excerpts also, thanks.

Offline Ack-Ack

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« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2007, 07:49:15 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by FBplmmr
Please explain "clover-leaf" I have never heard that before?

Great excerpts also, thanks.



Cloverleaf - The cloverleaf is composed of four identical maneuvers, each begun in a vertical plane rotated 90 degrees from the preceding one. One enters the cloverleaf by performing a loop and executing a 90 degree roll in either direction. This patter continues until the original flight path is resumed.


It works very well in this game but it does take some practice time to ensure that you've got the maneuver down correctly.   Effective against planes like the Spitfire and N1K2 at low speeds where the P-38 can take advantage of its superior low speed handling characteristics.

When I get home from work, I'll post a more detailed write up about the maneuver.


ack-ack
« Last Edit: November 30, 2007, 07:57:54 PM by Ack-Ack »
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
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