Author Topic: P-47 and P-38  (Read 3415 times)

Offline AquaShrimp

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P-47 and P-38
« Reply #45 on: December 02, 2007, 12:12:31 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Ahhh...my first bite.  I knew the luftwhiners couldn't resist such a stinky bait.  Too bad though the Fish and Game Dept. has deemed you too small to keep and I have to through you back for far bigger game.


ack-ack


I don't know what your talking about.  Apparently you're drunk again.  You knew the stories were bogus, yet you still posted them.  Your credibility is zero.

Offline Murdr

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P-47 and P-38
« Reply #46 on: December 02, 2007, 02:42:15 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by AquaShrimp
You knew the stories were bogus, yet you still posted them.  Your credibility is zero.
Says the Trolling Thread-jacking poster...Quite amusing.

Offline Ack-Ack

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P-47 and P-38
« Reply #47 on: December 02, 2007, 03:45:41 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by AquaShrimp
I don't know what your talking about.  Apparently you're drunk again.  You knew the stories were bogus, yet you still posted them.  Your credibility is zero.


LMAO...like you're anyone to talk about one's credibility.  Each post you make is a shining example of someone that clearly has their head up where the sun doesn't shine.   You have about as much credibility on these boards as VOSS or Mr. Black.  

Now be a good little boy and return that hook to me, I need it for the other little fishies.


ack-ack
« Last Edit: December 02, 2007, 03:49:46 AM by Ack-Ack »
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Offline Gowan

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« Reply #48 on: December 02, 2007, 03:52:53 AM »
ackack 2 - aquashrimp 0 (nil, zip, zero, zilch, nada)

Offline Yossarian

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P-47 and P-38
« Reply #49 on: December 02, 2007, 05:32:20 AM »
Despite the P-38s work in the Pacific Theatre, I've read repeatedly that it's engines just didn't work very reliably in Europe.  However, they apparently did just fine in north Africa.
Afk for a year or so.  The name of a gun turret in game.  Falanx, huh? :banana:
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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P-47 and P-38
« Reply #50 on: December 02, 2007, 07:58:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Yossarian
Despite the P-38s work in the Pacific Theatre, I've read repeatedly that it's engines just didn't work very reliably in Europe.  However, they apparently did just fine in north Africa.




Read up on Europe. The 8th AF had serious issues with fuel, as well as maintenance issues. I posted a write up by Lockheed test pilot Tony Levier on his findings during a tour of the P-38 groups in the 8th AF.

By the way, it wasn't the cold weather in Europe that was an issue. Unless of course you think it is colder in Europe (England, Germany, France, etc) than it is in Alaska, and the Aleutians. The P-38 was the top plane in the Aleutians, and they reported no real cold weather issues, and certainly NOT to the extent the 8th AF did.
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Offline Urchin

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« Reply #51 on: December 02, 2007, 08:41:29 AM »
It may very well be colder over Europe at 30,000 feet than it is over the Aluetians at 15,000.  I know that operations were flown at lower altitudes in the Pacific, how high did they fly in Alaska?

Offline Widewing

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« Reply #52 on: December 02, 2007, 10:31:04 AM »
Everyone seems to have forgotten that the P-38 was a primary fighter in the MTO, escorting bombers into Austria, Hungary, Yugoslavia, Romania, Czechoslovakia and Germany (several trips to Berlin too). It proved as reliable there as the P-51, not suffering the engine failure issues seen when deployed with the 8th AF.

You cannot isolate the 8th Air Force experience and point to the aircraft as the cause. You must evaluate what was going on the 8th AF that led to the problems.

Historians have done that and concluded that the problems were related to fuel formulation, which uniquely broke down in the Allison's intake manifold, with the anti-knock additive coming out of solution. Doolittle specified a specific fuel formulation for P-38 groups, which promptly eliminated fuel related engine damage. A second problem was that the 8th Air Force did not make any effort to train pilots in high altitude flight operations. Stateside RTUs were training pilots to fly and fight at 20,000 feet and below. Compounding the training problem was that replacement pilots rarely had any experience flying twin-engine aircraft. Most pilots arriving in Britain were trained on single-engine fighters, most getting their time in P-40s.

Now all of the above doesn't account for the P-38's design flaws. Things like a totally ineffective cockpit heater, single generator, manual oil cooler, radiator and intercooler doors; they all contributed to the numerous problems. These flaws could only be overcome, or at least mitigated by training. In the 8th AF, there was no genuine training for P-38 groups. Meanwhile, the 8th AF set up an entire training program for P-51 pilots, including combat training at "Clobber College".

Down in Italy, the 15th AF had set up a P-38 Training Command to get P-38 pilots up to speed rapidly. Plus, the fuel used in the MTO was formulated differently (much of the 8th's gas was refined by the Brits).

When the P-38L began arriving in the ETO and MTO, it arrived with automatic cooler doors, different engines with revised intake manifolds (which prevented fuel break-down), a more effective heater, dive recovery flaps, hydraulic powered ailerons and a myriad of other improvements that made the Lightning a first-rate fighter in the region.

The fact remains that the improvements were too late for the 8th AF, who never cared for the P-38 anyway. However, these new P-38s were gladly received in Italy and earned their keep flying with three of the 15th's six fighter groups. These P-38 groups were in combat up until the surrender.

The problem was one of attitude. The USAAF had a deeply ingrained bias against the P-38 and to a lesser degree, the P-47. They weren't the epitome of what the Generals thought a fighter should be. Indeed, these Generals, who became known within the USAAF as the Mustang Mafia, were in charge of the USAAF Fighter Command after the war ended. As a result, the P-38s were scrapped or sold off. P-47s were stuck in reserve and Air Guard units. The net result was that the primary ground support aircraft in place at the beginning of the Korean War were tired, old P-51Ds. While they dominated the Korean Yaks and Lavochkins, they suffered huge losses to ground fire due to the frailty of their cooling systems. Meanwhile, the Marines and Navy were flying the far more durable F4U-4, F4U-4B and F4U-5 (as well as the awesome AD-1 Skyraider). In October of 1950, the Navy offered the USAF 312 mothballed F4U-1Ds. The Air Force scoffed at the notion. Another 200 P-51 pilots would die before the surviving Mustangs were retired and replaced by the F-80 and F-84. Until the Inchon landings opened airfields on the Korean peninsular, the F-80s and F-84s had to operate out of Japan. They lacked the range to loiter over combat areas in Korea. Thus, the P-51s and a few dozen F-82 (twin Mustangs) were the primary support fighters.

When one evaluates the performance of a fighter in a theater or zone of combat, one must look at the entire picture. A localized snapshot can be extremely misleading.

My regards,

Widewing
« Last Edit: December 02, 2007, 10:33:41 AM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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« Reply #53 on: December 02, 2007, 10:51:31 AM »
^^^^^ EXACTLY

Again, the USAAF declined multiple Lockheed improvements for the P-38, not the least of which was the unit power control, which would have prevented a great many of the problems with the P-38 engines brought on by pilots who were not trained well enough.

Admittedly, Lockheed was slow to develop some things, the P-38 should have been MUCH further along than it was. However, the USAAF had told Lockheed they didn't want more than a hundred P-38's. Then, suddenly, the USAAF wanted the P-38 so badly that they would not allow Lockheed to stop, or even slow production to any real extent, even if the slow down or short stoppage would result in a much better plane.

The P-38K, with more powerful engines and better props was tested in early 1943, before there were ANY long range escort missions. Col. Ben Kelsey signed off on the dive flaps in early 1943. The unit power control was developed in 1943. But only the dive flaps made it into production, and that was delayed for almost a year.

In any event, only the 8th AF suffered serious problems with the P-38, and it still gave better than it got. It had a positive kill to loss ratio with the 8th AF, even if you include ALL losses, such as losses due to take off and landing accidents, navigation errors, mechanical failures, and even running out of fuel. In fact, many 8th AF P-38 pilots said they felt a lot of their losses were due to pilots who, knowing they didn't have enough fuel to RTB, stayed and fought until they ran out of fuel or were shot down. If you count ONLY ACTUAL COMBAT LOSSES, the P-38 scored between 4:1 and 6:1 with the 8th AF, according to most sources.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2007, 11:07:45 AM by Captain Virgil Hilts »
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SaVaGe


Offline TimRas

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P-47 and P-38
« Reply #54 on: December 02, 2007, 12:50:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
USAAF had a deeply ingrained bias against the P-38 and to a lesser degree, the P-47. They weren't the epitome of what the Generals thought a fighter should be. Indeed, these Generals, who became known within the USAAF as the Mustang Mafia, were in charge of the USAAF Fighter Command after the war ended.

You only missed the black CIA helicopters in your P-38 conspiracy theory..
:noid

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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P-47 and P-38
« Reply #55 on: December 02, 2007, 01:02:26 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by TimRas
You only missed the black CIA helicopters in your P-38 conspiracy theory..
:noid



:rolleyes:  Your significant contribution has been duly noted. :rolleyes:
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline DiabloTX

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P-47 and P-38
« Reply #56 on: December 02, 2007, 01:31:04 PM »
My father used to work alongside a 38 pilot to whom he used to have many, many conversations.  My father's input to me was the co-worker had absolutely nothing negative to say about the Lightning and that the only time he ever truly got nervous was on take-off.  He said if you lost an engine on take-off it was all over.  Apparently he flew most of his missions loaded out; fuel tanks, rockets, ect, and to loose a powerplant on take-off was by far his biggest worry.
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Offline TimRas

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« Reply #57 on: December 02, 2007, 01:32:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
:rolleyes:  Your significant contribution has been duly noted. :rolleyes:


Sorry, just wanted to know more of this "USAAF had a deeply ingrained bias against the P-38" thing
;)

Just may be it was that the P-51 could do everything that that the the p-38 could do, at half the price (51,572 vs 97,147 $, 1944 price).
« Last Edit: December 02, 2007, 01:44:29 PM by TimRas »

Offline TimRas

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P-47 and P-38
« Reply #58 on: December 02, 2007, 01:47:55 PM »
.

Offline TimRas

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P-47 and P-38
« Reply #59 on: December 02, 2007, 01:49:15 PM »
.