Where were the sane licensed carrying gun owners in all this?

[SteveBailey]

See Rule #2

[FBBone]

Originally posted by Guppy35
Just curious Laz, do you live in an area where you figure you will need a gun?  Have you ever been in a position where you've had to pull a gun?  What's gotten you to the point where you feel so strongly about carrying?

Not trying to pick a fight.  I just haven't ever found myself in a spot where I felt like carrying a gun was something I needed to do.

Guppy, I know you asked this of lazs but.......I really doubt that most people in the mall felt they were in an area where they needed a gun for defense.  In my opinion, it's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

[Maverick]

Originally posted by Guppy35
The comments about the mall and 'gun free' areas etc got me thinking, that and it's quiet at work today so I'm reading the boards

I'm a gun owner so this isn't anti-gun.  I like to shoot, and have a pretty decent arsenal at home.  I'm just curious if the folks believing that they should be able to conceal and carry, believe there are any places that should be gun free?

I'm married to an ER nurse.  They see all kinds of crazies.  Should they be allowed to carry?  I work with 'troubled teens" in a shelter.  Lots of them have had gun offenses.  Should I be able to carry a gun?  I'd be lying if I said there haven't been a few I'd like to take out back, but I've never considered that carrying a gun would be reasonable.  

How about a church?  I always thought it strange when they had to put up their signs outside saying guns were not permitted in them.   Do you believe they should be?

I guess I'm trying to figure out where the line is, or if some folks believe there is no line and they should be able to carry a gun anywhere?

I've only ever been in one situation where someone had a gun and he never pointed it at me, but he was trying to use it to intimidate me and made sure I saw it.  If I'd had a gun, it's the last thing I'd have used as I believe it would have escalated the situation.  I talked my way out if it.  My knees shook afterwards, but I just can't see carrying a gun.  It feels way to wild west to me.

Having a weapon in a hospital doesn't make things unsafe. There are weapons there if you have armed security. I don't recommend arming Nurses or Doctors. Not because I don't think they are smart enough but because they have other jobs to concentrate on and they HAVE to work in close proximity to folks who are not trustworthy. Think drug users, drunks and just plain nut jobs. A fight over control of a gun would be a bad thing in that circumstance.

Crazies, nutjobs and other folks like that are already prohibited from possessing a weapon. The law of course does not prevent them from being armed if they work hard enough to do so. If they were inclined to follow laws they wouldn't be doing illegal things anyhow.

If you don't feel comfortable in having a gun then you shouldn't carry one. There is absolutely nothing wrong with not carrying if you do not feel comfortable with it.

FWIW I have carried in a church lots of times. So far I have not been struck by lightning and the walls didn't fall down. My weapon also didn't hurt or threaten anyone.

The main point is that it's not the law abiding folks with weapons that are the problem. It's the folks who don't follow laws and carry then or use other means of hurting folks that are the problem. A gun free zone just gives them an open hunting ground in conditions that they like the best, unarmed victims to choose from. The folks inside aren't any safer from the law abiding people but they are much more at risk from the ones that want to prey on them.

I do tend to agree with a prohibition of carrying in a bar. Since alcohol diminishes inhibitions I agree with the concept that booze and guns don't mix.

[Guppy35]

Mav, FBBone,

What I'm trying to get my mind around is the notion of whether having the security blanket of a firearm on a person creates a freedom to use them.

I'm sure you guys have probably been around the gun boards like I have, and there is always that element that is just lying in wait for the shtf scenario so they can go 'tactical'.

I'm not disagreeing that 99% of the gunowners out there are law abiding folks.  I'd consider myself one of them.  

And I'm not telling you it's right or wrong.  I don't know.  There is just something about the notion of folks lugging their hand guns around that bothers me.  Which is why I'm asking.

[Maverick]

Originally posted by Guppy35
Mav, FBBone,

What I'm trying to get my mind around is the notion of whether having the security blanket of a firearm on a person creates a freedom to use them.

I'm sure you guys have probably been around the gun boards like I have, and there is always that element that is just lying in wait for the shtf scenario so they can go 'tactical'.

I'm not disagreeing that 99% of the gunowners out there are law abiding folks.  I'd consider myself one of them.  

And I'm not telling you it's right or wrong.  I don't know.  There is just something about the notion of folks lugging their hand guns around that bothers me.  Which is why I'm asking.

There are lots of guys who like to think they are tough. They like to boast a lot about how bad they are or what they would do in a bad situation. Don't figure that those are the ones you can count on. Almost all of them are all talk and no action. Don't figure they are the ones who actually have one. The internet is a wonderful place for people to act like they are something they are not.

A CCW permit is not a testicular implant nor does it make you tough or bad ass. Most of the folks that go out and get a CCW understand that. They were taught that a gun is a last resort situation and that you cannot take back the shot you fire. It's the last thing you want to do and will only do so if there is no other option.

[FrodeMk3]

Originally posted by Guppy35
Mav, FBBone,

What I'm trying to get my mind around is the notion of whether having the security blanket of a firearm on a person creates a freedom to use them.

I'm sure you guys have probably been around the gun boards like I have, and there is always that element that is just lying in wait for the shtf scenario so they can go 'tactical'.

I'm not disagreeing that 99% of the gunowners out there are law abiding folks.  I'd consider myself one of them.  

And I'm not telling you it's right or wrong.  I don't know.  There is just something about the notion of folks lugging their hand guns around that bothers me.  Which is why I'm asking.

I guess you really didn't mean freedom to use them as much as incentive, Dan?

And why I asked the question of vigilantism to Mav earlier. My question is, what kind of damage can a big ego do in the 'mass shooter' situation? For every success scenario, there's a complete tragedy scenario. Proper judgment would be the dividing line between the two.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by FrodeMk3
I guess you really didn't mean freedom to use them as much as incentive, Dan?

And why I asked the question of vigilantism to Mav earlier. My question is, what kind of damage can a big ego do in the 'mass shooter' situation? For every success scenario, there's a complete tragedy scenario. Proper judgment would be the dividing line between the two.

That's a better way of saying it.

Nutcase pulls out a handgun and opens fire in a store.  Guy doing his conceal and carry pulls out his gun and shoots at bad guy.  Bystander gets hit by 2nd guy or bad guy and 2nd guy end up blasting away at each other.

Next guy or cop comes in with gun drawn and shoots 2nd guy cause all he sees is someone shooting at someone else.  

We're not talking the range here, shooting at stationary targets.  We're talking a crazy situation with split second decisions needing to be made.

[SD67]

I'd like to have the right to keep a weapon at home. I'd also like the right to CCW but I'd probably never exercise it unless I knew I was going to an unfamiliar place with a very bad reputation. Something which is not very likely.
Unfortunately our Government has taken that right away from most of us.
As I have mentioned in a different thread just because you have a handgun does not mean you'll always have the advantage. The guy that confronted me with one probably had no intention of actually using it, instead he was more likely to have been carrying it for effect. Always a stupid idea but then junkies aren't necessarily known for clear thinking.
Anyway I think the point I'm trying to make is that having and using a handgun effectively are two entirely different things. If you pull one you better be damn sure you know how to use it and be prepared to back that threat up because the guy you point it at may just be quicker than you. Otherwise you may find yourself very badly off, especially if the gun ends up in the others' hands. The one time I was confronted and acted, I didn't waste time trying to get the weapon once it was dropped. I just booted it out into the yard and dealt with the immediate threat on hand. When the police recovered the pistol it turned out to be poorly manufactured and maintained and likely to have misfired. Still there is certainly no shortage of these and other more reliable makes readily available to any criminal who can put up the money.

[lazs2]

guppy.. I am not sure what you are asking.  I would be glad to sit down with you and give you my life story.  It matters not tho.. I don't need to know your life story to know why you think a seatbelt is a good idea or a helmet on a motorcycle.  Yes.. I have had to use a gun to make the situation come out well but that is not the point at all.   And yes.. I have seen some real bad men.. maybe more than the average person has but that is not the point.

We all do the math and take our chances.   Your chances of being a victim are high.   as you age or if you go into some areas.. they increase..   I think it funny that I was talking to some cops and they  were at a conference in plain clothes but they said there were areas they would not go to without a gun.

The more you see.. the more the idea of just being prepared appeals.   Those of us with a strong individualist streak also do not like to be helpless and at the mercy of others needlessly.. we also do not believe that the government can, or should be involved with helping us other than chalking out the outline and running the courts.

You seem to think that carrrying concealed would cause a "wild west" feel.. I suppose that you are right.. the "wild west" was a very polite place with almost every shooting a mutual event and most people very civil.. women could walk the streets at any hour...  they were treated with respect.

I would not mind going back to that when contrasted to our current inner cities.

But..  regardless of what you think can happen.. we have to look at the facts.  The facts are that the CCW experiment has been a very good one.. It has solved one hell of a lot more problems than it has caused.  

How can you drive down a two way road with 2 tons of death hurtling head on at you every few seconds at close to 140mph closing speed when you know that every one is in the control of (gasp) citizens!!!!  murderous scum!  one little twitch of the wheel and....

I trust my fellow citizens one hell of a lot more than I trust my government.   When a few of them try to use force on me tho.. I want to be able to make them stop.

lazs

[lazs2]

and.. I think it important to point out that with todays "equal opportunity"  hiring... there are many many cops who are not only afraid of guns but are worthless with one.. most recreational shooters would rank in the top ten for marksmanship against  the average cop.

I do believe a CCW holder should have a grasp of laws and be able to pass a test on same.

lazs

[FrodeMk3]

Originally posted by lazs2
and.. I think it important to point out that with todays "equal opportunity"  hiring... there are many many cops who are not only afraid of guns but are worthless with one.. most recreational shooters would rank in the top ten for marksmanship against  the average cop.

I do believe a CCW holder should have a grasp of laws and be able to pass a test on same.

lazs

That's a good point, Lasz. I posted a link to the Omaha Mall shooting a few posts' back in this thread, and one of them was the camera showing the amount of time from when people started running out of the store(shooting started?) to the time the first policeman stepped through the door. 6 Minutes. If that kid had packed as many loaded mags as he could have on him, He could have shot off 100 or more rounds' easily in that time. Killing god-knows how many more people.

However, Dan brought up a really good point too. It might not be a bad idea if a CCW had some minimal crisis-management training (If they don't already.)

As far Marksmanship, I might point out that a cop doesn't even need to discharge his weapon if he/she shows up 5 min. after the fact. The time you need protection is now...but you suddenly fall under the same criteria as the officer does, in how you handle yourself.

[lazs2]

They also don't need to use their weapon if their policy is to wait for backup... lots of backup.   They have no obligation whatsoever to save anyone.

you don't need to train people in crisis management.. you just need to make sure they know the laws.  

lazs

[Tigeress]

Originally posted by Maverick


I do tend to agree with a prohibition of carrying in a bar. Since alcohol diminishes inhibitions I agree with the concept that booze and guns don't mix.

It is much much more than simply inhibitions that are affected... it's extremely well documented that alcohol seriously impacts a person's ability to make sound and good judgements and additionally gives the individual a false sense that their judgement abilities have not been corrupted.

Guns + Alcohol = Deadly Combination

I would not THINK of driving a car or carrying  a weapon such as a gun if I had even so much as a single small glass of Chablis and I am simply not agressive at all. Therefore, I don't drink much or often.

When men's naturally agressive testostrone and alcohol and deadly weapons are combined... I do not want to be there.

TIGERESS

[MiloMorai]

I didn't know American police stations had transporters FrodeMk3 that could beam the police instantly to the exact scene of the crime taking place.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by lazs2
guppy.. I am not sure what you are asking.  I would be glad to sit down with you and give you my life story.  It matters not tho.. I don't need to know your life story to know why you think a seatbelt is a good idea or a helmet on a motorcycle.  Yes.. I have had to use a gun to make the situation come out well but that is not the point at all.   And yes.. I have seen some real bad men.. maybe more than the average person has but that is not the point.



lazs

That's all I was asking.  Just trying to understand your perspective.  Thanks for taking the time to answer.