P-47 and P-38

[Stoney74]

Originally posted by LEADPIG
It never ceases to amaze me and anger me the stupidity of the leaders...The P-38 could have been carrying them all along but due to their brain constipation of "they can fly unescorted" alot of folks died. When they had what seemed to be an obvious solution that even the most mentally retarded general should have recognized...

Don't forget that the theories of Douhet had entered into the minds of almost every air force in the world prior to the war starting.  Strategic bombing as a concept was, practically speaking, in its infancy.  Douhet theorized in the 20's that the Bomber would become the pre-eminent war winning weapons platform, unescorted by fighters.  Most of his theories were acted upon, and only through hindsight are we now able to critique them.  If you had asked anyone in 1940 whether or not unescorted bombers made sense, they'd have all said sure, because it hadn't been disproven, if indeed it actually was, yet.

That the P-38 was not used in ETO as early as it could have been was probably more because the Douhet disciples in the USAAF believed, with almost religious zealotry, in the primacy of his doctrine.  That's not stupidity--practically the opposite--those that believed in it did mountains of research and theorizing, and devoted most of bomber R&D in that direction.  There's a reason the B-17 had 12 caliber 50's on it.

[LEADPIG]

Good point, hindsight is 20/20. But it still seems to me somebody would have seen that coming. Unfortunately those people don't get listened too and everybody dies.

[gripen]

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Yes, thousands of line have been written. And plenty of them are wrong.

Lets take a quick look to your arguments.

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
The P-38 did quite well at every altitude. The 9th AF, 15th AF, and even the 5th AF all fought at high altitudes and did pretty well. With P-38's.

9th AF was a tactical air force and flew primarily tactical missions at low altitude, there might had been some rare cases when they flew at high altitude.

15th AF used P-38s as bomber escort during winter 1943/44. However, the difference to the 8th AF is that during that period they had no P-38Js but Gs and Hs and escorted planes were mostly B-24s which generally flew cruised at lower altitudes than the B-17. There were some P-38J based F-5s in the MTO and these faced very similar problems as 8th AF (see AHT). The P-51 replaced the P-38 as an escort starting from spring 1944 and for the rest of war the P-38s of the 15th operated at lower altitudes.

5th AF fought mostly at low altitudes and in pacific climate.

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
There were units that flew high altitude missions that NEVER turned in their P-38's for P-51's during the war.

I quess you mean the P-38 units of the 15th AF; these turned to the ground attack missions once the P-51 force build up in the MTO.

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
For the most part, the P-51 ended up replacing the P-38 due to supply and cost issues.

The USAF had ordered thousands of P-38s and was going to use them somewhere so at least in short term the costs were certainly not the reason why the P-38 was replaced in certain tasks.
 

Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
The P-38 was never adequately second sourced, and was ALWAYS in short supply. Funny, there were over 10,000 P-38's built during the war, and there still weren't enough to go around. They were always in demand, so it seems maybe everyone didn't want to get rid of them.

It can be said that the demand of the P-38 was larger than production up to autumn 1944. During spring 1945 the production of the P-38 was at top level but except at SWPA number of the P-38s started to decrease in active fronts and large number of P-38s found their way to secondary places like latin America or simply were stored to somewhere in US. P-38s in hand August 1945 from USAAF statistical digest:

Total 2417
Continental US 829
Overseas 1588

Against Germany 182 (555 May 1945)
Against Japan 1142


ETO 176 (234 May 1945)
MTO 6 (321 May 1945)
CBI 218
Alaska 116
Latin America 196
Far east 808 (SWPA)

(There is 68 planes missing from total, possibly on route)

Regarding these conspiracy theories (Mustang Mafia etc.). If there actually was something like that, it was actually against the P-51; as an example Echhols was phasing Mustang out of production spring 1942 etc.

[gripen]

Originally posted by Guppy35
Lots of folks seem to forget the problems the 51s had .  Those guys that flew those early missions to Germany knowing the guns might fail, the plugs might foul, the motor mounts might fail, etc had some serious guts doing that in a single engine bird.

Yes, there were plenty of problems with the P-51; basicly two fresh groups (354th and 357th) allocated to the 9th AF were hastily rushed to escort duties with a new unproven plane.

However, it's the results which matter; during the Big Week these two new groups out performed both P-38 groups (which had been around longer time) as well as most of the P-47 groups. Basicly it was the combat record which changed the minds of the USAF despite what ever were the problems.

Note that the P-47 groups were very large that time sending usually out more than 100 planes so based on sorties the P-51 did even better.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by gripen
Lets take a quick look to your arguments.

 

9th AF was a tactical air force and flew primarily tactical missions at low altitude, there might had been some rare cases when they flew at high altitude.

15th AF used P-38s as bomber escort during winter 1943/44. However, the difference to the 8th AF is that during that period they had no P-38Js but Gs and Hs and escorted planes were mostly B-24s which generally flew cruised at lower altitudes than the B-17. There were some P-38J based F-5s in the MTO and these faced very similar problems as 8th AF (see AHT). The P-51 replaced the P-38 as an escort starting from spring 1944 and for the rest of war the P-38s of the 15th operated at lower altitudes.


I quess you mean the P-38 units of the 15th AF; these turned to the ground attack missions once the P-51 force build up in the MTO.


 

9th AF 38 units were escorting 8th bombers in the Fall of 44.  They were pulled from their ground attack role back to England.  Was it all the time?  Nope.  As and example the 474th FG flew 3 high alt escorts of the 17s in October 44.  The other 38 Groups were involved as well.

I went back to check the MTO group histories I have.  38s were escorting bombers through the Spring of 45.  They were doing other jobs too including ground attack.  Another role they had was escorting the high altitude "Photo Freddie"  recce birds over Germany.

The 38s were involved in the longest escort mission flown from the MTO when they and the 51s escorted 17s to Berlin in March of 45.  They had 300 gallon DTs delivered specifically for that run to make sure they had the range.

Understand that none of this is bash the 51 time or the 38 was king time.  The 51 was the plane for the job in 44-45.  Economically, pilot training wise and performance along with the great range made it the plane to have.

That doesn't mean the 38 wasn't a very capable bird too.  The pilots who flew it, swore by it outside of the 8th.  For whatever reason, probably because the 8th was the most visible of the USAAF air forces, the 38 problems with the 8th got magnified.

Understand that regardless of the war, the internal politics within the services remained and bomber doctrine vs fighter doctrine was very much in flux in 42-43 before coming into sharp focus in 43-44 (read Schwienfurt etc)  The bomber guys turned out to be wrong and the only way for the bombers to survive was with fighter escort.

It's amazing how the problems got solved then.  It's hard to imagine, had the thinking been realistic in 42-43 that the 38 would have been sent to North Africa despite having the range to cover the bombers all the way, and the P47 would be delivered to the ETO without provisions for even carrying a single drop tank despite the fact DTs were not a new invention.

Its interesting how the Jug, by the time all was said and done was ranging all over Germany too with 3 DTs hung in 44.

So the 38 problems were solved, the Jug range problems were solved and the Mustang teething troubles were solved, when those problems moved to the head of the list because the bomber compaign couldn't sustain the losses it was recieving and still exist as a viable force.

Amazing how that works

[gripen]

Originally posted by Guppy35
9th AF 38 units were escorting 8th bombers in the Fall of 44.  They were pulled from their ground attack role back to England.  Was it all the time?  Nope.  As and example the 474th FG flew 3 high alt escorts of the 17s in October 44.  The other 38 Groups were involved as well.

Yep, I knew that they flew some escort missions but these were quite rare.

Originally posted by Guppy35
I went back to check the MTO group histories I have.  38s were escorting bombers through the Spring of 45.  They were doing other jobs too including ground attack.  Another role they had was escorting the high altitude "Photo Freddie"  recce birds over Germany.

I don't have much data on MTO P-38 groups other than Ethell's book and at least he claims that "For remainder of the war in Mediterranean, the P-38 made it's major contribution as a ground attack aircraft". 82nd claimed only 4 victories in air after September 1944 and taking a quick look to 82nd FG web site also revealed that they mostly flew ground attack. However, there is also  high altitude missions listed in mission reports, as well as recce escort missions as you claimed so I have no problem to admit that I was wrong in this case.

Originally posted by Guppy35
Understand that none of this is bash the 51 time or the 38 was king time.

 

Well, if you look above, it was not me who started to speak about USAF bias on P-38 or Mustang mafia. I just noted that P-38 did fine low altitude tasks, while for the escort tasks the P-51 was obviously better.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by gripen
Yep, I knew that they flew some escort missions but these were quite rare.

I don't have much data on MTO P-38 groups other than Ethell's book and at least he claims that "For remainder of the war in Mediterranean, the P-38 made it's major contribution as a ground attack aircraft". 82nd claimed only 4 victories in air after September 1944 and taking a quick look to 82nd FG web site also revealed that they mostly flew ground attack. However, there is also  high altitude missions listed in mission reports, as well as recce escort missions as you claimed so I have no problem to admit that I was wrong in this case.

I was checking my 1st FG stuff as well as that just didn't sound right.  They were flying escorts to the bombers until the end.  lots of talk in their history of 25-30K missions and the cold.  They flew 12 bomber escorts to Germany in April 45 as an example.

In regards to kills, the 38s in the Pacific scored their last kills in early 45 for the most part.

I think in both the PTO and ETO the air to air stuff dropped dramatically in 45.  All the fighter groups in the ETO were of the 'in the air and on the ground' mode, which of course lead to so many guys getting chopped down by flak.

Again, from an economic, training and performance standpoint, the Mustang was the better option in the end.  It was a war of attrition and replacing losses was part of the deal too.  Throw in maint and manpower costs and it only makes sense.

[gripen]

Originally posted by Guppy35
I was checking my 1st FG stuff as well as that just didn't sound right.  They were flying escorts to the bombers until the end.  lots of talk in their history of 25-30K missions and the cold.  They flew 12 bomber escorts to Germany in April 45 as an example.

That appear to be only partially true because according to 1st FG web site many of these escort missions (bomber or photo) were to Italy. The total being "14 dive bombing, twelve bomber escorts some concurrently on the same day, two fighter sweeps, and 29 photo escorts".

Originally posted by Guppy35
In regards to kills, the 38s in the Pacific scored their last kills in early 45 for the most part.

Looking the victory claims of various 15th AF groups reveals that after very busy summer 1944 the enemy activity dropped almost to zero in MTO. The 1st FG did not claim many in air after Sep 1944, just like 82nd. I have not found data on 14th FG so picture is not complete

However, the P-51 groups of the 15th AF (31st, 52nd, 325th and 332nd) still claimed quite many despite also they had very silent periods. The total for entire MTO being (total, air, ground):

Sep 44: 233, 18, 215
Oct 44: 257, 60, 197
Nov 44: 66, 38, 28
Dec 44: 66, 38, 28
Jan 45: 8, 8, 0
Feb 45: 27, 8, 19
Mar 45: 123, 105, 18
Apr 45: 110, 68, 42
May 45: nil

The reason for this might be that the P-51s penetrated deeper to Germany; at least the 82nd often escorted the bombers first part of the mission and the P-51s continued from that point while the 82nd went down to strafing attacks on targets of oppurnity.

Originally posted by Guppy35
I think in both the PTO and ETO the air to air stuff dropped dramatically in 45.  All the fighter groups in the ETO were of the 'in the air and on the ground' mode, which of course lead to so many guys getting chopped down by flak.

The MTO statistics reveals that most of the time they still claimed more in air than in ground, most notable exceptions being Sep and Oct 1944.

Originally posted by Guppy35
Again, from an economic, training and performance standpoint, the Mustang was the better option in the end.  It was a war of attrition and replacing losses was part of the deal too.  Throw in maint and manpower costs and it only makes sense.

I agree that in long term economics makes the difference while in short term it might not be the issue because the planes were allready ordered and crew trained etc. They still produced some 400+ P-38s per month 1945 and while only small part of these found their way to active fronts, the USAF still allocated most of these to use. Anyway, the notable thing is that the force build up against Japanese mainland contained mostly P-51s and P-47s.

Based on pretty much instant success of the fresh P-51 FGs in ETO I agree that easier training is also a signifigant factor. I can't imagine such "one night" transition to the P-38 as the 4th FG did to the P-51.

The performance is allways debatable subject. However, I think that even most P-38s pilots agree that the P-51 had some advantages.

[Guppy35]

Originally posted by gripen
Anyway, the notable thing is that the force build up against Japanese mainland contained mostly P-51s and P-47s.

Based on pretty much instant success of the fresh P-51 FGs in ETO I agree that easier training is also a signifigant factor. I can't imagine such "one night" transition to the P-38 as the 4th FG did to the P-51.

Before we get carried away with the legend of the 4th learning on the fly.  Understand they were assigned their first Mustang on Sepember 25th, 1943 when one was assigned to the 334th FS for evaluation and testing.  They started the transition for real on February 14th, 1944 and flew the first Mustang Mission on February 28th.  On the early missions they suffered a number of aborts due to mechanical difficulties and it took some time to get things straightened out.

So a veteran unit of experienced pilots and ground crews got going in a couple weeks.

370th FG, 9th AF got to England in Late February and began transitioning to the 38 in Early March 44.  They'd been trained on Jugs.  They didn't do it on the fly but they went operational May 1.  Their ground crews had no Allision engine time at all and the pilots were not twin engine guys.  The 4th at least had Spit time and the mechanics had Merlin time.

A brand new group without any experience transitioned from a single engine bird to a twin engined bird in a month and a half and went into combat.  Not too bad I'd say

When it came time to transition to Mustangs, the 370th did so grudgingly as they'd grown to love their 38s.

As for the PTO.  It's true the Iwo based 7th AF squadrons were 51s.  The 21st, 15th and 506th were all 51D Groups.  There were 2 P47N Groups but they didn't get there until July 45.

But you forget that the 5th AF had been fighting the Japanese since the get go and they consisted of 3 P38 Groups at the end of the war in the 49th, 8th and 475th Fighter Groups and 2 51 Groups in the 35th and 348th.

And of course the 13th AF fighter Command was 18th and 347th Fighter Groups and they had 38s.

And of course the 343rd FG of the 11th AF in the Aleutians, that scored the first kills against the Japanese in 38Es were in 38s until the end as well.

Trust me that I'm not bashing the 51.  506th FG Mustangs on Iwo are a long time hobby.  I think those VLR missions flown by the Iwo Mustangs were the toughest fighter missions of the war.  I can talk 4th 51s til you are blue in the face and I'd stack my 4th FG library up against just about anybody but maybe Fencer.

Lets just not minimize one bird or over emphasize another.  They both did their job and contributed and were significant in the roles they were given against both the LW and the Japanese.

[gripen]

Originally posted by Guppy35
Before we get carried away with the legend of the 4th learning on the fly.  Understand they were assigned their first Mustang on Sepember 25th, 1943 when one was assigned to the 334th FS for evaluation and testing.  They started the transition for real on February 14th, 1944 and flew the first Mustang Mission on February 28th.  On the early missions they suffered a number of aborts due to mechanical difficulties and it took some time to get things straightened out.

So a veteran unit of experienced pilots and ground crews got going in a couple weeks.

OK, there is obviously some sort of myth in the transition of the 4th. However, they flew both types during the transition being operational all the time.

Originally posted by Guppy35
370th FG, 9th AF got to England in Late February and began transitioning to the 38 in Early March 44.  They'd been trained on Jugs.  They didn't do it on the fly but they went operational May 1.  Their ground crews had no Allision engine time at all and the pilots were not twin engine guys.  The 4th at least had Spit time and the mechanics had Merlin time.

A brand new group without any experience transitioned from a single engine bird to a twin engined bird in a month and a half and went into combat.  Not too bad I'd say

I agree.

Originally posted by Guppy35
When it came time to transition to Mustangs, the 370th did so grudgingly as they'd grown to love their 38s.

Well, even some P-40 pilots liked their old ride more than the new when they transitioned to the new types. Personal opinions tend to vary, however, generally the former P-38 units started to claim more enemy planes after transition to the P-51.

Originally posted by Guppy35
As for the PTO.  It's true the Iwo based 7th AF squadrons were 51s.  The 21st, 15th and 506th were all 51D Groups.  There were 2 P47N Groups but they didn't get there until July 45.

But you forget that the 5th AF had been fighting the Japanese since the get go and they consisted of 3 P38 Groups at the end of the war in the 49th, 8th and 475th Fighter Groups and 2 51 Groups in the 35th and 348th.

And of course the 13th AF fighter Command was 18th and 347th Fighter Groups and they had 38s.

I was talking about USAF force build up against Japanese main land, only small parts of the 5th and 13th AF operated against japanese home islands. The P-38s were mostly in the SWPA where the P-38 did particularly well.

Originally posted by Guppy35
And of course the 343rd FG of the 11th AF in the Aleutians, that scored the first kills against the Japanese in 38Es were in 38s until the end as well.

Last victory claimed by 11th AF fighters was from May 1943 so it was not a particularly active front.

Originally posted by Guppy35
Trust me that I'm not bashing the 51.  506th FG Mustangs on Iwo are a long time hobby.  I think those VLR missions flown by the Iwo Mustangs were the toughest fighter missions of the war.  I can talk 4th 51s til you are blue in the face and I'd stack my 4th FG library up against just about anybody but maybe Fencer.

Lets just not minimize one bird or over emphasize another.  They both did their job and contributed and were significant in the roles they were given against both the LW and the Japanese.

I'm not bashing the P-38 either; I'm saying that it did generally well but the P-51 did some tasks better and that was also a common opinion inside USAF.

[WWhiskey]

Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Germans regarded the P-38 as a subpar plane.

P-47 didn't have the range to escort B17s in 1942 and 1943.

 that could be why they lost the air war!
 they underestimated everything we had! after all the rest of the world was substandard the them!