Scoring A-20 havoc in fighter mode

[B@tfinkV]

the mosquito has a fighter mode, wuld it be possible to have the same option for the A20?

i know at least one of my squadmates that would definitely enjoy the option.

S!

[humble]

Hehe, at leasy I dont have to lug the ords off the runway:)...

I dont know that it truely belongs as a "fighter" but its got roughly the same air to air capability as the Mossie and the 110 do. I'm probably at about a 2/1 K/D ratio. If you could weed out the structural failures, ack/osti/Jabo deaths and intentional bails to go where the action is I'd say I'm probably around 3/1 in the thing over the last 6 months. I'd just love to get the perkies in the fighter catagory. I am curious in that the A-20 is the only multi engine "bomber" I'm aware of without an actual bomb site. I'd think that the glass nosed Boston would be a bomber while the solid nosed A-20 should fall under "attack/fighter" with the same thing for the strafer...which doesnt even have a "formation" option if I'm correct. I'd suggest the formation option be removed from the A-20 as well.

[moot]

You keep saying that Humble.. If there's a line to draw between bombers and fighters, the A20 is definitely bomber-side. It can't compete with the 110 and mossie in dogfights.

[humble]

I'm simply going based on my own experience in the A-20 over the last 6 to 8 months. I've flown all 3 and the reality is that neither the 110 or Mossie ever held my attention the way the A-20 is. I've spent a fair amount of time in a variety of planes and been recognized as "good" in more then a few of them. The more time I spend in the A-20 the more subtleties I discover. While there is no question that the gun packages on the 110 and mossie are vastly superior the planes themselfs arent.

I fly the A-20 vs everything as a fighter and the 110 and mossie are only a threat with an advantage IMO (and they are for everyone). The vast majority of the mossie/110 drivers I see normally do well when they control the initial engagement but otherwise go down quickly if they cant get out of dodge.

I usually dont fly very high and often engage spits, hurricanes, nikki's etc with neg E/neg alt with some measure of success. While I certainly get stomped on in a true 1 on 1 on numerous occasions its much more common for me to end up at the bottom of a 1 on 3,4,5 or more at the end.

As far as I'm concerned I'm still the limiting factor with the A-20 in a fight. It's capable of beating anything in the game in a 1on 1 regardless of pilot IMO. I just cant quite get everything out of it yet.

I'm working learning to kill 109K's, Spit 8/16's and Tiffies...the 110 and Mossie's I've run into simply havent proved to be threats (I've never lost to one yet in a 1 on 1). I've flown the 110 and Mossie in the last 30 days and continue to fiddle with them....so far I can find an awful lot the A-20 can do they cant. At this point besides the gun package the only thing a Mossie or 110 can do is go faster.

So the bottom line is simple, I'll kill an A-20 in a mossie or 110 (but then I'll kill an A-20 in anything)...but I'll kill a 110 or mossie in an A-20 even easier (so far).

I'm sure WW and Cobia are better A-20 drivers then I am, you might easily kill me in a mossie (or I might get you) the 1st time. But over time I think the a-20 can easily adapt to the mossie (or 110) in a fight. Now the mossie and 110 can both B&Z the A-20 and kill it...

And in reality the only way to consistantly kill an A-20 is to not give it a chance. Once you decide to "dogfight" an A-20 your playing to its strength regardless of what plane your in IMO.

[Karnak]

The Mosquito FB.Mk VI was flown by RAF Fighter Command, not Bomber Command.  It was used as a fighter at times as well.

The A-20G was not.

[Krusty]

Even though you use it that way in this game, it was never sortied as a fighter. It was never upped in group/squadron strength with the intention of engaging and killing the enemy fighters over a given area.

It's not a fighter.


Ground pounder, through and through! It's performance and handling are secondary to its role. Look at the IL2 in this game, you can still get plenty of fighter kills while dogfighting with it, but you're flying a bomber (edit: bomber/attacker) and nobody would dispute that.


P.S. All the quirks and tricks you're learning may go bye-bye whenever the model is upgraded to "Gen 3" like the new planes. It's one of the oldest flight models, and possibly one of the buggiest/most-inaccurate in the game. If/when they ever "update" (fix?) it, it may handle more like the B-25

Ya never know

[moot]

" It's capable of beating anything in the game in a 1on 1 regardless of pilot"

No... The only planes I'd have trouble in vs. an A20 are planes with huge handicaps, such as the 190A8.  Any of the 109s are either nimble enough to flat out out maneuver it or spunky enough to just leave the A20 in the dust.
The 190D9 is probably the closest match that I'd wager would lose to the A20 in a stall fight.  But that's a 190D9 we're talking about, definitely one of the least advantageous planes to stall fight in.
The 152 would lose only because it's porked, and the A5 would be a close match but only because of its anemic gun package.  With equal pilots the A5 will come out on top eventualy, at least 7-8 times out of 10.

Then we'd try the 110 - C out handles, G out handles and turns the A20 to confetti on the smallest of first snapshots, which it can negotiate very easily.  And the mossie is the same.  One snapshot and a half, at most, and the A20 is wrecked.

C202, 205, both out maneuver and kill the A20 easily.. Zeke, N1K, Ki84, Ki61, P51s, P47s, Spitfires, Tempest, P38s and F4Us, F4F and FM2, Hurricanes, La's and Yaks all out maneuver the A20 with equal pilots.

The only doubts I have are the typhoon and 262.  I never fly the typhoon and I haven't given the 262 a try at stall fighting since it gained half a ton a year or more ago.  
The A20 might be a stable and rugged package that's pretty fast and nimble for its mass, but it is nowhere else than at the bottom of the dogfighting food chain..  It's a big armored turtle that floats nicely and can bite pretty hard, but no one is stupid enough to wait sitting-duck in front of its beak.  Like a turtle, all you need to do is walk around and turn it over, then stick a fork in it.

The only chance the A20 would have is a lag-free gunner in the back turret.  Point blank at low relative velocities would really change the picture.

[humble]

I dont have any "quirks & tricks" in the A-20. Thats whats so much fun, it's all BFM. None of the Neg G pop up stuff like the IL-2 has. IRL the A-20 was very appreciated for its ability to be "yanked around" like a fighter and it did engage enemy fighters on a somewhat regular basis by neccessity (with some success). It's real life handling was far superior to the B-25. The A-20G we have was designed and intended to be a ground attack aircraft...esentially the same role the Skyraider had later. While I agree that its not a fighter it sure wasnt a bomber.

[moot]

It was less of a fighter than it was a bomber.

[humble]

Moot its not worth even commenting on.

I run into good sticks in every plane you mentioned every tour. And while I certainly get hosed I also win more then a few. In fact if I'm up in an A-20 I seem to draw a crowd in it. And no question you can stalk and kill an A-20 relatively easily if left to do it in piece. But its suprisingly capable in a fight.

I ran into a very well regarded stick routinely mentioned in various "best of" threads who engaged me with alt, E and numbers yesterday and died thinking just what you do (he knew it was me)...

Your comments are all based on what you "Think" the A-20 can do...not what it does. Like I said I fight good sticks every day and never once have had to say "you only beat me because I was in an A-20". I dont view it as any different then any plane you mentioned...

[moot]

Wrong... On paper and in practice.

[B@tfinkV]

it doesnt matter....

what i do know is that i have seen humble fighting people like SHawk. humble being A20 Shawk in F4u-C and with alt advantage.

humble kept him busy for 15 mins, i was the gunner. we died in the end because a couple more enemy came and taxed his SA to the limit and shawk (with smoking engine) finished us off.


now i dont think ive seen many people flying la7s that effectively vs someone as good as Shawk.



anyhow, this is a simple request so lets keep the thread simple?

[BaldEagl]

Originally posted by moot
No... The only planes I'd have trouble in vs. an A20 are planes with huge handicaps, such as the 190A8.  

Well, you are probably correct in your assesment of the A8 vs the A20.  I lost in an A8 against Drediok in an A20 a week or so ago.

I started by maintaining E, extending, reversing and going for the deflection shot on his break but the A20 is pretty nimble in comparison to the A8 and I wasn't able to connect.

Once the fight got slowed down I was barely able to extend for a reverse and when I finally decided to disengage I was barely able to stay out ahead of him.  

He finally clipped my left wing from 800 back and i died trying to land once I got it home.

While I can't recall losing to an A20 in more capable planes, I have had a few give me a good fight, one of them while I was in a Spit.  I'm surprised at how capable they are. [EDIT] Moreso than the Mossie and definately moreso than a 110 in the right hands.

[humble]

Originally posted by moot
Wrong... On paper and in practice.

According to someone with just about zero time in one...

The fact that you dont feel capable of engaging fighters in the A-20 doesnt mean that it cant. For the most part the guys who beat me in the A-20 are the same guys capable of beating mt in most other rides as well. I rarely lose a fight "because" I happen to be in an A-20.

[Yeager]

For comparrison:

General characteristics A-20
Crew: 2-3
Length: 47 ft 6 in (14.5 m)
Wingspan: 61 ft 4 in (18.7 m)
Height: 17 ft 7 in (5.4 m)
Wing area: 465 ft² (43.2 m²)
Empty weight: 15,051 lb (6,827 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 20,320 lb (9,215 kg)
Powerplant: 2× Wright R-2600-A5B "Double Cyclone" radial engines, 1,600 hp (1,200 kW) each
Performance
Maximum speed: 338 mph (294 knots, 544 km/h) at 12,500 ft (3,800 m)
Range: 1,050 mi (912 nm, 1,690 km)
Service ceiling: 27,600 ft (8,400 m)
Rate of climb: 2,000 ft/min (10.2 m/s)

General characteristics - de Havilland Mosquito
Crew: 2: pilot, bombardier/navigator
Length: 44 ft 6 in (13.57 m)
Wingspan: 54 ft 2 in (16.52 m)
Height: 17 ft 5 in (5.3 m)
Wing area: 454 ft² (42.18 m²)
Empty weight: 14,300 lb (6,490 kg)
Loaded weight: 18,100 lb (8,210 kg)
Max takeoff weight: 25,000 lb (11,000 kg)
Powerplant: 2× Rolls-Royce Merlin 76/77 (left/right) liquid-cooled V12 engine, 1,710 hp (1,280 kW) each
Performance
Maximum speed: 361 knots (415 mph, 668 km/h) at 28,000 ft (8,500 m)
Range: 1,300 nm (1,500 mi, 2,400 km) with full weapons load
Service ceiling: 37,000 ft (11,000 m)
Rate of climb: 2,850 ft/min (14.5 m/s)
Wing loading: 39.9 lb/ft² (195 kg/m²)
Power/mass: 0.189 hp/lb (311 W/kg)

The Mosquito and the A-20 are largely comparable.  True Statement?