Scoring A-20 havoc in fighter mode

[humble]

Excuse me, I've been flying AH since Beta and online since AW on Genie and was part of the original training cadre here. While I'm far from the best stick in the game I'm not exactly cannon fodder either.

[B@tfinkV]

umm ack-ack ...

you signed up on the forum in 2002, when did humble sign up?

please though guys, lets get along now. how would it hurt you to let someone score in fighter mode? it was just a request and you both are coming off as 'leet' trying to put humble down.

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by B@tfinkV
umm ack-ack ...

you signed up on the forum in 2002, when did humble sign up?

 

Incorrect.  This is my 2nd forum handle, the first one was created in '99 when a former squadron mate (Moray) told me about AH beta.  Had to create this one when I lost the login information to my previous forum handle.  Anything else?


ack-ack

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by B@tfinkV


please though guys, lets get along now. how would it hurt you to let someone score in fighter mode? it was just a request and you both are coming off as 'leet' trying to put humble down.

Please read our posts, nowhere do m00t or I mention not allowing players to score A-20 flights in fighter mode.  Although, now that you do mention it, it is kind of silly since it wasn't a fighter nor designed as such.  If you do allow it, then you'll have to do it to the D3A, Ju87, TBM, IL2, etc...


ack-ack

[moot]

I'm not looking to put down anyone here, except false (very false) arguments.  They happen to be posted by Humble, so that's who my refutals are written to.
From the start I've just said that the A20 in AH just doesn't live up to the A20 as portrayed by Humble. I've never gone after Humble himself except when he tries to bias the argument towards his large experience with the plane, or when he tries to say I've none myself as a means to discredit my arguments.  I refuted that as bogus because it is.  Is that what you're denouncing as elite Batfink?  Come on! You could argue I'm spoiling your thread about scoring the A20 as fighter, but it's not a fighter.  No risk there...  Like AKAK says too, the A20 isn't a fighter. What if the A26 showed up?  That's not a fighter either.
The P61 could probably get a fighter categorization, and so could the F7F.  Pretty different from the A20.

About SHawk, I would have to see it to really believe it.  A slow and big target like the A20 is a piece of cake to track guns onto, especialy when those are M2 20mm cannons on a platform like the F4U, piloted by someone like SHawk from higher altitude...  Something's up, and by Humble's own admission about his piloting skills, it couldn't just be his doing, nor can it be the A20's extraordinary performance - it has none such.

Humble, maybe you just haven't flown much else than the A20. I've never argued the pilot side of things (i.e. you in the A20 cockpit), only put things in the plane's perspective.
I could look further up the thread, but here's an example:

Doesnt mean I'll win but that wont be the A-20's fault.

It will be. The A20 is no fighter.  I'm not going to keep arguing it because you're apparently blind to the fact, purposedly or not.
Yes, it's fun, it's able enough to kill noobs with it or catch average sticks by surprise, but it's still a big flying turtle.  Any stick above average flying an average fighter will kill it easily. Nevermind a top tier plane and/or a top stick.

And the whole griefer accusation doesn't work either.  I know what it's like to love a plane that just blows junks.  The difference is that I don't cry over the roofs how the Ta152 is awesome when it really isn't at all.

[humble]

I've never said the A-20 is uber, simply that its suprisingly capable in an "air to air" role. I've never said its a fighter either, its not. What I have said is that it can be flown with a suprising measure of success as a "fighter". Thats not just vs noobs or marginal planes. I've had numerous encounters with very good sticks and won more then a few (and lost more then a few).

You keep making bombastic statements...

Any stick above average flying an average fighter will kill it easily. Nevermind a top tier plane and/or a top stick.

That have no basis in reality. I fly the A-20 in the LWA, usually against superior numbers (although that ebs and flows) at lower altitudes. I have very few GV kills as a rule...

3 M16, 1 M-8, 1PT & 1 PZ. Some of those actually were in either a 110 or mossie sortie when we were trying to take a town down in support of an other squads mission.

For this tour I'm 93-38 so far (which is better then my norm). Since the usuage in the MA is heavily slanted toward late war planes I encounter "top tier" planes every flight. Overall I show..

9-4 La-7
10-3 P-51 (2 from SkatSr & the other from guy from 4th)
7-5 Spit 16
1-0 Spit 8
5-5 Nikki
5-3 spit9
4-2 Typhoon

I've got plenty of A-20 clips up (as well as a few boston clips) so the A-20 "according to humble" is readily viewable for anyone interested. The raw numbers are viewable as well...

I have no doubt that you and AckAck both have some time in the A-20...however none of it shows as reasonably current. Both of you seem to be a bit more score oriented and fly planes that you can exploit as a general rule. I've flown the A-20 as a primary ride for 6 months and done reasonably well with it in the LWA enviornment in the "fighter" role. So yes I'm more qualified to discuss its merits and flaws in that capacity then either of you are at this time.

[moot]

Originally posted by humble
I've never said the A-20 is uber, simply that its suprisingly capable in an "air to air" role. I've never said its a fighter either, its not. What I have said is that it can be flown with a suprising measure of success as a "fighter". Thats not just vs noobs or marginal planes. I've had numerous encounters with very good sticks and won more then a few (and lost more then a few).

"Taken by surprise".

You keep making bombastic statements...
Any stick above average flying an average fighter will kill it easily. Nevermind a top tier plane and/or a top stick.

That have no basis in reality. I fly the A-20 in the LWA, usually against superior numbers (although that ebs and flows) at lower altitudes. I have very few GV kills as a rule...

We'll just leave it as agreeing to disagree.  The A20 as anything but fighter fodder is what's bombastic.

[Stats]

Stats don't mean much at all, they can be twisted any which way and thus any suggested trend is lost in statistical noise, e.g. luck, flying in the horde, plainly picking etc

I have no doubt that you and AckAck both have some time in the A-20...however none of it shows as reasonably current.

Has the flight model changed or something?

Both of you seem to be a bit more score oriented and fly planes that you can exploit as a general rule.

More BS... That dirt you've got in your eyes is what's making your argument seem credible.

I've flown the A-20 as a primary ride for 6 months and done reasonably well with it in the LWA enviornment in the "fighter" role. So yes I'm more qualified to discuss its merits and flaws in that capacity then either of you are at this time.

No, you obviously are doing something wrong with the big picture, to believe the A20 is "P38-lite", flies well enough that any stick above average flying it VS. an average fighter will easily win 1:1s.

the 110 and Mossie's I've run into simply havent proved to be threats (I've never lost to one yet in a 1 on 1

Couldn't happen vs above average, aware and focused pilots.  I've dodged bullets and turned the odds in a 2:4 or 2:5 or something, in a mossie, at 10-16k (we were right near the stratus cloud cover) vs P51D,P38,Spitsomething and a few other planes, Kappa saw it, it lasted for maybe 10 minutes non stop.  The A20 could never, ever do that sort of thing.  Not from what I remember of my trials in its cockpit, not based on what I've seen from it from any players (and you aren't the only good player to ever have flown it).

At this point besides the gun package the only thing a Mossie or 110 can do is go faster

Typical stuff by you that's just plain wrong.  You might say exceedingly absolute or bombastic..

That's my last post, this is going nowhere with you.. My impression and gut feeling is that you aren't good enough a stick to have taken planes like the mossie, 110, P38 and others far enough towards the limit of their envelope to realize how far beyond the A20's those envelopes are, resulting in the inaccurate comparisons you make between the A20 and pretty much everything else.

[Karnak]

Mossie and 110 will kill the A-20G for the same reason the F6F will kill the A6M.  Sure, the A-20G or A6M can out turn the  other fighter in the match, but that is all that it can do.  Speed, power, high speed structure and firepower are all on the side of the Mossie, 110 and F6F.  Against one flown right, all the A-20G or A6M can hope to do is survive.

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by humble


 Both of you seem to be a bit more score oriented and fly planes that you can exploit as a general rule.  

LOL!  Sorry but I fly the P-38J exclusively (okay, I might have some hops in the G and the L) and one can hardly descriped this plane as "exploitable" or that I play for any type of score (unless you think 1533 is a high rank).  So please, don't try and go there.

Whether or not you want to face the facts, but moot and I are more than qualified to speak about the merits and demerits of flying the A-20G as a fighter.  The problem is that you just don't want to hear what we're saying since it doesn't mesh with your own beliefs.

The simple fact is, the A-20G is not a fighter.  If you meet up with a pilot that is of equal skill or greater in a single engine fighter, 9 out of 10 times you'll be dead in the A-20G.

Sure all dogs can run, but would you race a Greyhound against a Chihuauha and expect the Chihuauha to come out the winner?


ack-ack

[humble]

Ack Ack I'm not trying to "go anywhere". The 38 is one of the best all around E fighters in the game. As a general rule your known as a high alt 38 driver (correctly or incorrectly). Anytime a 20K+ 38 is encountered the inevitable comment on range is "that must be Ack Ack". Again that may or may not be an accurate statement and Im certainly not trying to throw rocks...other then the mid arena encounter I cant recall that last time I ran into either you or moot. I normally fly the A-20 at about 12k sometimes lower rarely higher....

Neither of you has a reputation as any type of a furballer that I'm aware of (again maybe not really correct). Most of the A-20 clips I post are low level multicon semi furball fights, yet I'm constantly being told the A-20 isnt capable of doing things I do in the MA almost every day by people who dont really fly it at all on a regular basis.

The A-20 is every bit as competative in the MA as the P-40, P47-D11, Ki-61 or similiar planes in my opinion. All of those planes have significant weaknesses that need to be "protected" as much as possible and yes all are vulnerable to a higher performance plane flown as an E fighter.

An A-20 with the advantage is a dangerous plane and an A-20 at a disadvantage isnt automatically dead meat if it has some air under it.

And actually I dont think either you or moot are "more qualified" then I am to talk about flying the A-20.

[Stang]

While the A20 might be a great plane that has the ability to carry a lot of ord and is very flexible in its ability, it really is nothing more than a maneuverable bomber.  It has the ability to fight its way out of a pickle and can be flown with success in the right situation, but in no way is it a fighter.  Not even close.

Its roll rate is horrid, it can't dive away without falling apart, is merely an average turner, and frankly is very sluggish in its controls due to its mass.  The one area of dogfighting it shines in is the vertical, where its inertia can make it out zoom an opponent.  The 110 and Mossie can do almost everything the A20 can do better, plus have much more devastating armament.

Some people over the years have had good fortune in it, such as Cobia, Widewing and a few others, but most of that is probably just due to people underestimating the A20 combined with the quality of the pilots behind the stick in it.  Put it in a 1 on 1 vs anything with equal pilots and it's meat except for the aforementioned situations, but even in those it's still going to have a hard time winning.

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by humble
Ack Ack I'm not trying to "go anywhere". The 38 is one of the best all around E fighters in the game. As a general rule your known as a high alt 38 driver (correctly or incorrectly). Anytime a 20K+ 38 is encountered the inevitable comment on range is "that must be Ack Ack". Again that may or may not be an accurate statement and Im certainly not trying to throw rocks

Usually those comments come from those that I shoot down on a regular basis.  Some have a hard time getting over the fact their uber ride was out flown by a big fat wannabe bomber like the P-38.  I'm usually between 10-12k.  The only time I venture higher is if I'm after someone or the hord is flying above my regular altitude.

Neither of you has a reputation as any type of a furballer that I'm aware of (again maybe not really correct). [/b]

That would also be incorrect about both moot and myself.

An A-20 with the advantage is a dangerous plane and an A-20 at a disadvantage isnt automatically dead meat if it has some air under it.[/b]

The same could be said for any fighter in the game.

And actually I dont think either you or moot are "more qualified" then I am to talk about flying the A-20. [/B]

With the amount of stick time I've spent in the A-20G since it has been released (and it is quite considerable), I am more than qualified to speak about the merits and demerits of fighting in the Havoc.


ack-ack

[humble]

Originally posted by Karnak
Mossie and 110 will kill the A-20G for the same reason the F6F will kill the A6M.  Sure, the A-20G or A6M can out turn the  other fighter in the match, but that is all that it can do.  Speed, power, high speed structure and firepower are all on the side of the Mossie, 110 and F6F.  Against one flown right, all the A-20G or A6M can hope to do is survive.

No question the mossie and 110 can B&Z the A-20. In fact thats the best way to engage an A-20 in anything. However if the mossie or 110 actually engage the A-20 then its a question of avoiding the FQ or snapshot. The Mossie and 110 arent really any different then the Tiffie, C-hog, la-7 or P-47 in that regard. If the A-20 can get "inside" the con it can prevail...if it doesnt then it will fall to a FQ or snap shot.

There is an ongoing learning curve in not just avoiding the shot but creating a window to counter punch. Invariably the A-20 has to trade alt and/or E or risk taking the fight up in a situation where getting caught "lumbering" will leave it eviserated. Those judgements on relative E state and AoA limits for both planes are part of the ongoing fun for me. The reality is that I keep getting slightly better at doing exactly what you all are saying I cant.

I routinely engage multiple cons in the A-20 and survive multiple passes from multiple planes without even a hit, let alone any damage in a furball. No question that when I run into an elite stick in the A-20 I'm toast most of the time...last one was fester in a 109K. He had alt & E and we went about 90 seconds and he missed 2 or 3 shots. The one he got me on was a wingtip shot. The last one on one I lost before that was Dedalos in a 1A hog and SkatSr in a P-51D...

So I'm going to argue that any of the 3 beat me because I was in an A-20?
They beat me because they're better then I am...not what I was flying. Now I'll still lose to "lesser" sticks in a one on one...again becuase I didnt get everything I can out of what I was in. I think I could have beat all three guys above in the A-20...as easily as in anything else. The solution is in being a better pilot, not in getting a better plane.

[B@tfinkV]

i geuss this one has pretty well been decided.

at first humble only took a little joy in the idea of being able to score his favorite fighter ride as a fighter, not a major request.

it was never about what the A-20 would handle in a fight in DA with equal pilot yadda yadda. while alot of these points are true, none of them helped anyone to enjoy the game more. humble wants to enjoy being one of the only people with the ability to fly the A-20 as a fighter and the compulsion to do so almost every flight even vs the worst odds. why we can't just enjoy other people pride in themsleves or their favorite ride is beyond me.

sometimes the true statistics of the plane are not as important as what you believe about the ones you love..

[humble]

Bat,

I could care less about the A-20 being scored as a fighter. Or to be honest about what other folks think about the plane (or my ability to fly it). I'm simply amazed about the absoluteness of the comments on the A-20. No question that it has quantifiable disadvantages vs any true fighter...however it has enough relative strengths that it can be competative in a MA enviornment. At this point its stupid to continue this one any farther...