Scoring A-20 havoc in fighter mode

[humble]

The flight model is actually pretty average. It's really a "P-38 light" without the benifit of true combat flaps. Like a 38 if you fly it in a linear manner its junk. The A-20 requires a reasonable understanding of E management and relative lift vectors. It doesnt out turn the mossie or the 110 or most of the planes in the game but it will out fly many of them under certain circumstances.

Whats important to the A-20 in a fight is much more subtle then for most planes and within that frame work what plane your fighting is less relevent. In fact I've found that the biggest problem with the A-20 is either the pilot who truely flies "Stupid" in a superior plane or the savvy stick who flys a "contrarian" style.

I recently had some great fights with both SkatSr and Dedalos. Both were in different planes (and under diferent circumstances) yet both settled in on essentially the same tactic. Now both were in planes that I have a high success rate with in the A-20 (probably 5/1 or better in 1 on 1's). I tried to get both into the "profile" I wanted and both "bailed out" of that fight into one I couldnt handle.

I simply view this as a couple of very good pilots intuitively rejecting a fight that "felt wrong". It also altered my overall view on certain cause and effect in general and I'm toying with how to counter that fight in the future. The pilot is always going to be a big part of the equation. The A-20 doesnt really diminish my options vs most other rides. It's not an ENY 5 bird but its every bit as capable as any of the higher ENY fighters....which all have strengths and weaknesses. In the end the A-20 has two engines, 6 center mounted .50's, goes 400 MPH, absorbs alot of damage and handles reasonably well....works for me:aok

[humble]

Yeager to me the A-20 is very similiar but flies "smoother" then the Mossie or 110. I always go back to WW's comment on "smooth" being fast. The A-20 is on rails thru alot of manuevers that would spin either the mossie or 110 out IMO. I think that smoothness is what catches people by suprise and creates problems for them. The A-20 can carry alot of E thru a set of BFM compared to most planes or ride the edge of a stall were the 38, mossie or 110 would start to scrub E as it stalls out...

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by moot
It was less of a fighter than it was a bomber.

Correct...the only variants of the Havoc that were considered "fighters" were the P-70 and P-70A (night fighters).  Both saw service with the USAAC in in the PTO only and their service time was brief.  Both were equipped with the British AI Mk IV and the P-70 was equipped with 4 20mm (60 rounds each) in the nose.  The P-70A had machine guns mounted in the nose.

Contrary to what some may believe, the A-20 was primarily used as a bomber that was capable of both high and low altitude bombing missions.  Yes, it could defend itself if needed like the A-26 but it still doesn't change the fact that it was first and foremost a bomber and was used almost exclusively in that role (with the exception of some specialized variants like the above mentiond P-70 series).

As others have stated, in AH, given that the experience of the pilots are equal, the one in the single engine fighter will prevail over the A-20.


ack-ack

[moot]

Batfink, I don't know what was wrong with SHawk that day... If he had altitude on an A20 in a chog and couldn't put it down in a few passes, there was something up with SHawk.  

Originally posted by humble
According to someone with just about zero time in one...

Wrong.. I did the A20 thing when it came out. Because it was fun and to get an idea of what I was up against. I know what the A20 can and can't do.

You can argue the small bright side of the moon all you want, the fact remains that it's a minor crescent vs. the odds stacked overwhelmingly against the A20.  If it can "under certain circumstances" beat most other planes, than most other planes can beat it "under certain circumstances", but even more so.
"P-38 light".. where do you stop the hyperbole Humble?  The only thing lighter about it vs. the P38  is that it feels tons heavier and can't even get into high AoA's like the 38, 110 and mossie can to begin with. That's a pretty distorted use of "lighter".
The mossie and 110 both (never mind the P38) can be as smooth as the A20 provided their pilot inputs smoothly.  

The A20 and mossie are "largely comparable", in favor of the mossie.  You can argue that the A20 is fun, there's nothing wrong with that.  I fly the 25H into furballs any chance I get.  But I don't go on and on about it being superior to most planes because it can "under the right circumstances" shoot them down.

[humble]

Your simply clueless....the A-20 easy outhandles the 110 and Mossie {and 38}at high AoA. It doesnt have the power in the vertical or the sustained climb rate but its exceptionally stable at high AoA. Very few planes can hang in a climbing scissor fight with the A-20....certainly not a Mossie or 110. The 110, mossie and 38 are all known for spin related control issues, a sign of problems at high AoA...the A-20 can be spun and recovered at will almost to the 1/8 of a revolution. The sign of a plane with no true AoA issues. It's about as docile as a piper cub.

Now that being said I've never once claimed the A-20 is superior to any fighter (and I'll include the mossie and 110 in that). It simply doesnt have the structural capability or top speed potential of any fighter. I've stated it can be flown competatively and with a measure of success. So either I'm some uber pilot (which I'm certainly not) or your totally misguided (my vote) in your understanding of the planes capabilities. To me the A-20 isnt any harder to fly in the MA then the P-40, 109E, P47-D11, Ki-61 or a host of other rides. Then again you dont fly those either do you?

Lot of 262, la-7, D9, Tempest, C-hog etc....

Anytime you want to "argue" with me about the relative merits of a plane you actually fly let me know...

[moot]

Total bs.
And like I said I've flown the A20 plenty.  You looking up my stats for these last tours as base for your arguments is like Titanic shrugging off the tip of the iceberg as nothing to worry about.

If that's what it takes to get those wooden glasses off your eyes, bring your A20 anytime. I'll take either a mossie or 110 and turn it to scrap metal in under 3 revolutions.. Nevermind a P38.

"The A20 easily outhandles the 110, mossie and 38 at high AoA".  Wow.

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by humble
The 110, mossie and 38 are all known for spin related control issues, a sign of problems at high AoA...

That's a new one on me, only times I've entered into a spin is if I've 1)lost an engine while turning 2)flaps auto-retracted in a turn fight while not paying attention in the P-38 and I've probably got the most hours in that plane than anyone in this game.

ack-ack

[humble]

No question that an accomplished 38 driver is not going to have the spin issues that a lesser pilot will. Same for a mossie or 110...however most pilots have issues with departure on all 3 planes. That instability can often be an asset in a fight. Most good 38 furballers can stall a wing at will, however keeping the plane on the edge requires more control input then the A-20 does.

This is being blown way way out of proportion. The A-20 is a fun and suprisingly adaptable bird that can be flown with a suprising amount of success as a "fighter"...nothing more nothing less. No other plane has ever held my interest for more then a month or two. I've flown the A-20 for at least 6 months and feel like I'm still scratching the surface with it.

Obviously its got serious limitations vs any true fighter...however I'm 95-38 this month so far and my K/D over the 6 months is probably 1.5/1 or better. shed out the structural failures and its 2/1. Overall in true 1 on 1's i'm probabably well over 5/1. The vast majority being to accomplished sticks who are my match in most match ups. While I'll get stomped on every so often most of the time the A-20 puts up a good fight before it goes down.

I'm simply amazed at the absoluteness of the comments from folks who dont fly it.

[humble]

Originally posted by moot
Total bs.
And like I said I've flown the A20 plenty.  You looking up my stats for these last tours as base for your arguments is like Titanic shrugging off the tip of the iceberg as nothing to worry about.

If that's what it takes to get those wooden glasses off your eyes, bring your A20 anytime. I'll take either a mossie or 110 and turn it to scrap metal in under 3 revolutions.. Nevermind a P38.

"The A20 easily outhandles the 110, mossie and 38 at high AoA".  Wow.

I looked up those stats because they are current, nothing more or less.

Good lord I could care less about you or what you fly or what your opinion of yourself is. From looking at your stats I'd say your nothing but a horde monkey. That may or may not be right but I really dont care much one way or the other.

I fly the A-20 about 80% of the time right now, i'm sure you can find me pretty easily. i'll just look for the 20k mossie in the horde:aok

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by humble


I'm simply amazed at the absoluteness of the comments from folks who dont fly it.

No offense but most of us here have been playing this game a lot longer than you have.  If you took the time to check, you'll see other than the P-38, the other plane I've flown the most has been the A-20G.  And I'm sure that if you look at moot's stats, you'll see that he too has a lot of stick time in the A-20G.   Waffle and I used to up A-20Gs and go on Dweeb Hunts all night long, good times those nights, especially when we used to make FTDEEP and CHI whine.


ack-ack

[humble]

Hmmm....

Dont ever recall saying that I've been here longer or fly any better then anyone in particular or that I'm the "best" A-20 driver around. Moots got nothing in 2007 before august and no appreciable numbers in the A-20 since then. You've got 5 kills in the thing this year from what I saw and a less then 1/1 ratio.

No disrespect but I think both of you are a bit full of yourself's:)

[moot]

Originally posted by humble
I looked up those stats because they are current, nothing more or less.

Good lord I could care less about you or what you fly or what your opinion of yourself is. From looking at your stats I'd say your nothing but a horde monkey. That may or may not be right but I really dont care much one way or the other.

I fly the A-20 about 80% of the time right now, i'm sure you can find me pretty easily. i'll just look for the 20k mossie in the horde:aok

To see the stats AKAK's talking about you'd have to find the handles I've used over the years, and as far as I know, only wildduck and 2bighorn have had as many.. But that's irrelevent because those stats or the ones you looked up aren't representative of what I know or can do.  Stats aren't representative of those things for anyone.
This argument (A20 vs. everything you claim it to be) was never about me, what I fly, or my opinion of myself - it's you that's bringing it up out of the blue.
I don't fly in the hordes.  That you don't care about said things doesn't matter and has nothing to do with this argument.
AKAK and I aren't full of ourselves, anymore than you are (A20 claims aside).. what I'm on about are your posts about the A20.

The posts you've made about the A20 don't stand up to facts - they are wrong.  
My posts aren't about me or my flying but about the facts in your posts being wrong - you've been saying (and now are borderline backpedaling) that the A20 will out do the 110, mossie, 38, and other things that just don't hold up at all, such as that the A20 is a P38-lite.

Like I said, I've flown the A20, so what I'm saying isn't baseless.  The A20 is dogmeat for the mossie and 110, even moreso for the P38, equal pilots, pilots being anything between average and seasoned vets.

[humble]

1st,

I have/had no intention of making this a pissing match and to the degree i've contributed to that I apologize to both of you.

2nd,

I'm a good but not stellar pilot. Nothin I do in the A-20 (or anything else goes beyond reasonably competent BFM/ACM).

3rd,

I've probably got more current stick time then anyone in the A-20. To the best of my knowledge I havent back peddled on anything regarding the A-20 but I might appear to in trying to clarify a particular statement.

4th,

I've got more actual stuff on film (good and bad) then most so its easy to look at how I fly it.

5th,

I'm still learning the plane (which is rare since after 30 days in anything I'm refining not learning).

To the best of my knowledge I'm the only guy other then cobia flying the A-20 regularly as a primary ride. Normally at mid or low alt and usually vs superior numbers...that doesnt mean I'm the best A-20 driver just that I fly it often under varying conditions.

In 6 months I've never lost anything near a fair fight vs a 110 or mossie in an A-20. That doesnt mean I cant or that I've run into the best mossie or 110 drivers. What it does mean is that a reasonably competent pilot can fly the A-20 at "normal" MA alts under normal conditions and achieve a level of success roughly equal to any 'mid range" fighter.

I've been here since beta so i'm reasonably well known. I'll occasionally sneak on a "best of" list as an honorable mention but i'm far from a dominant pilot here. So in know way do I qualify as "uber" yet I'm consistantly raising the bar on the A-20 and I'm to old a dog to learn new tricks. I'm 95-38 so far flying the A-20 as a "fighter" this tour. I think I can push the thing to 5/1 or even higher without resorting to "horde" flying or strictly cherrying.

I simply disagree with your assessment of the A-20. BTW i'm quite comfortable fighting any 38 drivber in it 1 on 1 as well. Doesnt mean I'll win but that wont be the A-20's fault. I have yet to lose a fight in the A-20 where I feel that it was the planes fault...but then I feel the same way in a P-40 to. The pilot dominates the fight....not the plane IMO. The A-20 has a suprisingly large range in which it is quite capable, i'm still learning to apply it better....

Now that doesnt mean I wont still get beat, but I'll continue to give the other pilot credit....not blame it on the A-20. Now this is not a comment specific to a duel where plane type can win much more easily under a more controlled situation. But if I meet a plane in the MA at 10k in an A-20 i'm still concerned with the other guy, not the other plane, regardless of what I'm flying.

[B@tfinkV]

Originally posted by moot
Batfink, I don't know what was wrong with SHawk that day... If he had altitude on an A20 in a chog and couldn't put it down in a few passes, there was something up with SHawk.  
 
 

'passes' wasnt an option, humble denied anychance of making a shot the entire fight. perhaps the F4u-c wasnt on top of his game, who can say. humble flew in  a manner that baited shawk to go for a shot and then got out he way and reversed him before having to reset and avoid being roped, each time starting a different method to oufly the attackers guns completely and repeatedly.

i saw this with my own eyes, we both know shawk is a deadly shot with any guns let alone 4x20mm so it is obvious that humble was doing something right to last so long.

in the end shawk won his shot that he needed, and instantly sent us to the tower. humble simply flew the A20 that fight as well as anyone possibly could, and still lost, so you are right the 'better plane' came out on top like it should have starting with altitude....but boy did he have to work for it.

[Ack-Ack]

Originally posted by humble
Hmmm....

Dont ever recall saying that I've been here longer or fly any better then anyone in particular or that I'm the "best" A-20 driver around.

Never said you claimed such.  I just pointed out when you're trying to imply that neither moot nor I have as much stick time as you in the Havoc.  I was merely pointing out that we've been playing this game a lot longer than you have and have flown the A-20 just as much as you.  Call it a case of "been there, done that and have the T-shirt."

Moots got nothing in 2007 before august and no appreciable numbers in the A-20 since then. You've got 5 kills in the thing this year from what I saw and a less then 1/1 ratio.[/b]

Do yourself a favor and look up from the day the A-20G was introduced into this game until now.  You'll see that other than the P-38, most of my stick time as been in the A-20G.  Though, this last year I haven't really been flying it that much, pretty much only take it out now to hunt GVs that are attacking my base and rarely use it to dogfight anymore.  

No disrespect but I think both of you are a bit full of yourself's:)

None taken but I do hope you realize that the only one that is full of themselves is you.  Moot and I are going by our experiences with flying and fighting the A-20G and no offense, but our experience both individually and combined is far more vast than your little more than year experience in AH.

ack-ack